AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education

On Jul 17, 2:09 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> The_Carpathia wrote:
> >So much for education being a key issue in the debate, it seems.  In
> >recent speeches to NAACP, we see that ....
>
> >...both McCain and Obama support teacher performance pay (opposed by
> >the unions).
>
> Meaningless, since they wouldn't necessarily support the same policies
> on teacher performance pay.

According to their speeches...they do.

>
> >...both McCain and Obama support charter schools (opposed by the
> >unions).
>
> Your evidence is lacking that the unions oppose charter schools.
>

Recent evidence has been provided many times, such as when the NEA
objected to Obama's speech, when he supported charter schools. They
blasted him, afterwards, at their websites for that support. The link
provided in the initial post, also, gave Obama support for charter
schools as an example of his break from liberals (didn't follow the
link....did you).

> >...both McCain and Obama support NCLB.
>
> But they mean different things when they say that.
>

Let me rephrase..then. BOTH will fund NCLB...better?

> >McCain says he will fully fund
> >it, while Obama says he will INCREASE funding for it (despite liberal
> >opposition to it).
>
> Unless they say where the money is coming from (and that answer
> doesn't include the meaningless "eliminate waste", I don't believe any
> politician who says that they will increase funding for anything).
>
> Any increases in funding had better mean an increase in taxes, or the
> deficit will get worse, which is unacceptable.
>

So, you are disagreeing with Obama's words in your argument about what
Obama supports? Apparently, you know best what Obama believes (more
than Obama). However, I take note that you believe your own candidate
is lying to you...about who knows how much. Hint...he lied to you at
the start in saying he was a progressive.

> >...neither McCain and Obama want NCLB to stay the same but plan on
> >fixing any flaws it may have.
>
> But of course they see different flaws, so that is just attempt to
> paper over the differences.
>

You have evidence of this? Give me SPECIFIC flaw differences, here,
if you have them....



> >...McCain said he supports voucher programs, while Obama recently was
> >condemned by the left for supporting government funds being given to
> >faith-based programs (which...I would assume...would include schools,
> >unless he is lying about it being ok to give government funds to
> >religious groups)
>
> That assumption has nothing to do with reality.  The discussions of
> "Faith-based programs" refer to social service programs for the poor.

It's still money from the government to religious groups, which is the
point.

>
>> .  Indeed, here's an article from May of this year
>
> >where Obama SUPPORTED the idea of voucher programs...
> >http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749401
>
> I see two lines about vouchers in that article, and neither says that
> he supports them.
>
> <"For example, he hasn’t ruled out private school vouchers, and some say he could return to the idea."
>
> That merely says that he hasn't taken an unflinching ideological
> stance against them.  

So, he is not against them.

> <OBAMA: “If vouchers are proven to work], whatever my preconception, you do what’s best for kids.”
>
> The second quote suggests that his preconception is against vouchers,
> but that he is willing to be open-minded.  Of course, since vouchers
> have NOT been proven to work, his statement indicates no changes in
> favor of vouchers.

This is stated policy of being willing to do vouchers and not being
against them. Since vouchers would come from congress, it only
matters if the President would veto such legislation. In regards to
this, BOTH Obama and McCain would not veto it.

>
> >...McCain said he supports alternative certification programs (as if
> >he was the only one to support such).  However, Obama's own website
> >says....
> >"Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships
> >that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate
> >teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-
> >career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a
> >high-need field or location."  This would indicate support by Obama
> >for alternative certification programs.  Thus...both agree, again.
>
> Not all "alternative certification programs" are alike.  Obama refers
> to HIGH-QUALITY programs, which necessarily excludes any program that
> lets someone like you into a classroom.  He also requires a 4-year
> teaching commitment.  That's a pretty high standard.  Teach for
> America has 75% turnover over 5 years, which is hardly good enough for
> Obama.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2003_Nov_24/ai_110364129
>

Dude. I am highly qualified, right now, according to state records.
YOU, on the other hand, are a punk. I have a college degree, 19 hours
of Education coursework, have passed a general knowledge test, two
subject knowledge tests (ABCTE and FL state), and a teacher knowledge
test that has been ruled harder than the one Praxis offers (only 40
percent pass the test). You just have an ego and an air of
superiority to speak down to those that have education training
(without any of your own) and false authority on a wide number of
subjects.

Just so you know...also. ABCTE (one of the many things that is behind
me) just released the results of a review of their alumni. A full 85
percent of their graduates that started teaching 3 years ago are STILL
there, three years later. That beats the retention rates of most
schools and beats (by far) the national average of teacher retention
rates.

That being said, I await your reference to OBAMA's words that say he
would not support ABCTE, Teach for America, or other such
organizations. Throughout your response, here, you seem to reject
Obama's own words, where you don't like them, and add Obama's words,
where he hasn't said them. What's the matter? Don't like where he's
taking your party? Feeling betrayed?

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
>On Jul 17, 2:09 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>> The_Carpathia wrote:
>> >So much for education being a key issue in the debate, it seems.  In
>> >recent speeches to NAACP, we see that ....
>>
>> >...both McCain and Obama support teacher performance pay (opposed by
>> >the unions).
>>
>> Meaningless, since they wouldn't necessarily support the same policies
>> on teacher performance pay.
>
>According to their speeches...they do.

You are clueless. Neither has stated detailed policy on that, or on
most other issues.

>> >...both McCain and Obama support charter schools (opposed by the
>> >unions).
>>
>> Your evidence is lacking that the unions oppose charter schools.
>
>Recent evidence has been provided many times,

Your evidence is lacking.

>such as when the NEA objected to Obama's speech, when he supported charter schools.

"They" may have objected to his speech (but of course "they" didn't),
but that doesn't mean that "they" opposed every word of every
sentence.

Meanwhile, we have the stated official position of the NEA on the
subject.

>They blasted him, afterwards, at their websites for that support.

Your evidence is lacking. I see nothing "blasting" anyone on the NEA
website.

http://www.nea.org/educationvotes/briefingbook.html
has a two page PDF about charters
<Even though more than a million students in 40 states now attend some
< 4,000 charter schools, the jury is still out on whether this is an
< effective school improvement strategy.

That is "ambivalent", not "opposed".


>The link
>provided in the initial post, also, gave Obama support for charter
>schools as an example of his break from liberals (didn't follow the
>link....did you).

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3749401

"Scholastic" is not the NEA.

And the article says this:
<For these reasons, the United Federation of Teachers and the National
< Education Association have not endorsed him.

which does not mean that they oppose him.
Followed by:

>Then again, he isn’t on
< the hot seat yet, and it’s hard to tell from speeches and campaign
< propaganda what he’d really do if he were in charge.

Apparently they don't see as clearly into Kennie's prophetic vision
that says that the two candidates would be absolutely identical if
they were in charge.

>> >...both McCain and Obama support NCLB.
>>
>> But they mean different things when they say that.
>
>Let me rephrase..then. BOTH will fund NCLB...better?

ESEA/NCLB has to be reauthorized. It WILL be changed as a result of
that reauthorization. The nature of the changes will be affected by
who is elected - at least in the real world as opposed to Kennieland.
Therefore, what they are promising to fund are different things.

>> >McCain says he will fully fund
>> >it, while Obama says he will INCREASE funding for it (despite liberal
>> >opposition to it).
>>
>> Unless they say where the money is coming from (and that answer
>> doesn't include the meaningless "eliminate waste", I don't believe any
>> politician who says that they will increase funding for anything).
>>
>> Any increases in funding had better mean an increase in taxes, or the
>> deficit will get worse, which is unacceptable.
>
>So, you are disagreeing with Obama's words in your argument about what
>Obama supports?

No. I am saying that Obama's words don't mean what you think that
they mean, because as you interpret them, they make no sense. You
cannot increase spending without raising the money. So the quote from
Obama is not a complete policy and is therefore meaningless.

>Apparently, you know best what Obama believes (more than Obama).

I make no such claim. I do have common sense though.

>However, I take note that you believe your own candidate

He isn't my candidate, idiot. I remain officially undecided.

>is lying to you.

I don't consider pandering to be lying. I consider it to be
pandering. That is why I generally ignore what the candidates are
saying now. Especially taken out of context, as you incessantly do,
those statements don't really mean anything.

>...about who knows how much.

You certainly don't.

> Hint...he lied to you at the start in saying he was a progressive.

I don't know when he said he was a progressive, if he did so at all,
but he didn't say it to me (and in fact has NEVER said anything to
me), so he could not have lied to me.

And if I google on his name and progressive, I can find several people
and groups calling him progressive, including Hillary when she was at
the height of her campaign against him and therefore unlikely to give
him the benefit if the doubt
feeds.dailykos.com/~r/dailykos/index/~3/211505184/05769

He certainly seems like a progressive to me. But the word almost
certainly means something different to me than it does to you. Indeed,
the word to me described EXACTLY what the scholastic article says that
he sounds like:
<As a candidate, Obama is mostly pushing traditional Democratic ideas.
< At times, however, he’s sounded much more like a reform-minded free
< thinker.

We can use a "reform-minded free thinker". Reform-minded means that
he is progressive. "Free thinker" means that he isn't an ideologue.

>> >...neither McCain and Obama want NCLB to stay the same but plan on
>> >fixing any flaws it may have.
>>
>> But of course they see different flaws, so that is just attempt to
>> paper over the differences.
>
>You have evidence of this?

They are in different political parties, idiot.

>Give me SPECIFIC flaw differences, here, if you have them...

A quick look at their sites:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/
stresses aiding schools that need improvement, improving the testing
process, and making education more than test preparation, strongly
emphasizing math and science education, transition ESL programs,
summer and after school learning programs, and early intervention
against dropouts. He also has 4 specific points on improving teacher
qualifications (which is also a part of NCLB)
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/19ce50b5-daa8-4795-b92d-92b...985bca.
which appears to stress parental choice, school competition, and
applying the same standards to mentally retarded kids as to the
gifted.

Obama position paper doesn't mention choice or competition or equal
standards. McCain's position paper lacks specifics, but doesn't seem
to address any of the things that Obama addresses.

In short, their positions have almost nothing in common.

>> >...McCain said he supports voucher programs, while Obama recently was
>> >condemned by the left for supporting government funds being given to
>> >faith-based programs (which...I would assume...would include schools,
>> >unless he is lying about it being ok to give government funds to
>> >religious groups)
>>
>> That assumption has nothing to do with reality.  The discussions of
>> "Faith-based programs" refer to social service programs for the poor.
>
>It's still money from the government to religious groups, which is the
>point.

That is not the point to him. That may be the point to someone like
jalison, but Obama is not jalison.

>> <"For example, he hasn’t ruled out private school vouchers, and some say he could return to the idea."
>>
>> That merely says that he hasn't taken an unflinching ideological
>> stance against them.  
>
>So, he is not against them.

That is not in evidence either. See the following:

>> <OBAMA: “If vouchers are proven to work], whatever my preconception, you do what’s best for kids.”
>>
>> The second quote suggests that his preconception is against vouchers,
>> but that he is willing to be open-minded.  Of course, since vouchers
>> have NOT been proven to work, his statement indicates no changes in
>> favor of vouchers.
>
>This is stated policy of being willing to do vouchers and not being
>against them.

No. It says that he is against them, but is willing to be open-minded
enough to consider them if they are proven to work (which they haven't
and won't, so he is not in danger of having to keep that commitment).

>Since vouchers would come from congress,

They won't come from Congress. That wasn't even possible when the
Republicans had a solid majority.

Existing voucher plans are being done at the state or local level.

>it only matters if the President would veto such legislation. In regards to
>this, BOTH Obama and McCain would not veto it.

Obama is perfectly free to veto such legislation until such time that
vouchers are proven to work (and even then he could veto them for
other reasons). But since there will be no such legislation, that
isn't relevant.

>> >...McCain said he supports alternative certification programs (as if
>> >he was the only one to support such).  However, Obama's own website
>> >says....
>> >"Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships
>> >that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate
>> >teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-
>> >career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a
>> >high-need field or location."  This would indicate support by Obama
>> >for alternative certification programs.  Thus...both agree, again.
>>
>> Not all "alternative certification programs" are alike.  Obama refers
>> to HIGH-QUALITY programs, which necessarily excludes any program that
>> lets someone like you into a classroom.  He also requires a 4-year
>> teaching commitment.  That's a pretty high standard.  Teach for
>> America has 75% turnover over 5 years, which is hardly good enough for
>> Obama.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2003_Nov_24/ai_110364129
>
>Dude. I am highly qualified,

Bullshit. You are highly incompetent.

Your posting have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.

>right now, according to state records.

Oh. You got your certificate, or are you still working on it?

>YOU, on the other hand, are a punk.

Not hardly

<Main Entry: 1punk
<Pronunciation: \'p??k\
<Function: noun
<Etymology: origin unknown
<Date: 1596
<1archaic : prostitute
<2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
<3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a
< young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a
< young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
<4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles

I am not a prostitute
I am not young (I qualify for AARP membership).
I am not a gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian, and indeed have never been
charged with a misdemeanor, much less convicted.
And I don't like punk rock or competently play any instrument, and my
hair is the color that God gave to me.

>I have a college degree,

From Falwell U, which means nothing positive to anyone with common
sense.

I have a university degree from a respected institution, not merely an
accredited one, and my degree was a coordinate major of astrophysics
and liberal science. And I earned somewhat over 5 years worth of
college credits in 4 years, so I was technically qualified for a
second bachelors in math or physics, though they would have been
minimal qualifications not in accord with what the typical majors in
those subjects took.

>19 hours of Education coursework,

Yawn.

We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.

>have passed a general knowledge test,

Yet you are a general know-nothing.

>two subject knowledge tests (ABCTE and FL state), and a teacher knowledge
>test that has been ruled harder than the one Praxis offers (only 40
>percent pass the test).

Yawn.

I haven't taken them, and Praxis is NOT considered to be a difficult
test, regardless of how many pass it.

I have taken the SAT (pre-recentering). Wanna compare scores? I am
certainly better educated than when I took that test.
I have take the National Merit Scholarship Test, when it was a
different test than the PSAT. I scored in the top 3% in the country.
I have taken a few IQ tests when I was a kid. In the last one, I
took, on entering high school, I apparently scored higher than anyone
ever had in our district.

>You just have an ego

Not really. But of I did, it would be well-earned.

>and an air of superiority to speak down to

.... an idiot like you.

My IQ would grant me that "superiority" if anyone cared.

But on this forum, what matters is the respect granted by others. It
is quite clear that no one on the education forums respect you, and
the k12 teachers forum respects you even less than the general
education forum. On the other hand, I am shown respect on both, even
though I freely admit that I am NOT a teacher.

By the standard of respect on this forum, you are lower than the Nazi
racist spammers. They at least respect each other (for what that is
worth), whereas NO ONE respects Kennie.

>those that have education training
>(without any of your own) and false authority on a wide number of
>subjects.

No one has authority on this forum, and no one needs authority on this
forum.

On the science fiction written newsgroup, there are postings by
published science fiction writers. THEY are granted some authority in
the limited arena of how to write and get published.

In this forum, even a Teacher of the Year (John Gatto) has no especial
authority except for those who share his extremist ideology.

>Just so you know...also. ABCTE (one of the many things that is behind
>me) just released the results of a review of their alumni. A full 85
>percent of their graduates that started teaching 3 years ago are STILL
>there, three years later. That beats the retention rates of most
>schools and beats (by far) the national average of teacher retention
>rates.

Yawn.

Let me know when there is an INDEPENDENT review. Not that I care.
Anyone who says you are qualified, has thereby invalidated themselves
in my mind as an accrediting organization.

>That being said, I await your reference to OBAMA's words that say he
>would not support ABCTE, Teach for America, or other such
>organizations.

He has said what he WILL support. He has not said what he will not
support. I don't much care.

>Throughout your response, here, you seem to reject Obama's own words,

No. I reject YOUR interpretation of those words, or more often,
simply don't care about his words.

>where you don't like them, and add Obama's words,
>where he hasn't said them. What's the matter?

Nothing.

>Don't like where he's taking your party?

What party is that? I am not in his party or any other one, so he
can't take my party anywhere.

>Feeling betrayed?

Nope. Since I have promised him nothing and he has promised me
nothing.

And every time you force me to look at what he says, I like most of
what I see.

I don't demand 100% agreement with my own ideas from any politician,
nor do I expect any politician to follow what he has said 100%.

lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab RemoveThis @lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

OH...you wanna make it personal...got it. It's on.

On Jul 18, 4:08 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:

> >> Not all "alternative certification programs" are alike.  Obama refers
> >> to HIGH-QUALITY programs, which necessarily excludes any program that
> >> lets someone like you into a classroom.  He also requires a 4-year
> >> teaching commitment.  That's a pretty high standard.  Teach for
> >> America has 75% turnover over 5 years, which is hardly good enough for
> >> Obama.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2003_Nov_24/ai_110364129
>
> >Dude.  I am highly qualified,
>
> Bullshit.  You are highly incompetent.
>
> Your posting have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>

Of the two of us I am the ONLY one with Education coursework, teacher
testing, Education certification, and state recognition in education.
I am the ONLY one of us that the state declares "highly qualified" to
teach; yet, YOU think you have some air of authority...how?

> >right now, according to state records.
>
> Oh.   You got your certificate, or are you still working on it?
>

I have (in my possession) a state certificate of eligibility that says
I am highly qualified and that once I am hired and complete the entry
program (that all teachers take in Hillsborough Co) I will have a 5
year certificate. Do you have said certificate?

> >YOU, on the other hand, are a punk.
>
> Not hardly
>
> <Main Entry: 1punk  
> <Pronunciation: \'p??k\
> <Function: noun
> <Etymology: origin unknown
> <Date: 1596
> <1archaic : prostitute
> <2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
> <3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a
> < young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a
> < young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
> <4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles
>

"nonsense....foolishness...inexperienced...novice" sounds right to me
in the areas of Education.

>
> >I have a college degree,
>
> From Falwell U, which means nothing positive to anyone with common
> sense.
>
> I have a university degree from a respected institution, not merely an
> accredited one, and my degree was a coordinate major of astrophysics
> and liberal science.  And I earned somewhat over 5 years worth of
> college credits in 4 years, so I was technically qualified for a
> second bachelors in math or physics, though they would have been
> minimal qualifications not in accord with what the typical majors in
> those subjects took.
>

No matter how many times you lie, it remains that LU is recognized by
EVERY board of accreditation in every field it participates. EVERY
single state accepts my degree, as well as every institution. YOUR
school's graduate program would admit me with this degree, as I have
shown you, as well as every state's education department. Your degree
gets no more respect at those education departments than mine, even
with your ego. Further, I will undoubtedly have more history,
politics, and business courses than you would have...easily (none of
which came from LU..by the way) from my major BEFORE I switched to
religion.


> >19 hours of Education coursework,
>
> Yawn.
>
> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>

All of those courses came from an NCATE and NEA approved education
program. I am currently an NEA student member, due to that education
program...in which I scored highly and currently have a letter of
recommendation from my mentor, there.

> >have passed a general knowledge test,
>
> Yet you are a general know-nothing.
>

Have YOU passed a general knowledge teacher test? No.

> >two subject knowledge tests (ABCTE and FL state), and a teacher knowledge
> >test that has been ruled harder than the one Praxis offers (only 40
> >percent pass the test).
>
> Yawn.
>
> I haven't taken them, and Praxis is NOT considered to be a difficult
> test, regardless of how many pass it.
>

Have YOU taken them...no. Further, you just heard me say that only 40
percent pass the ABCTE test.

> I have taken the SAT (pre-recentering).  Wanna compare scores?  I am
> certainly better educated than when I took that test.
> I have take the National Merit Scholarship Test, when it was a
> different test than the PSAT.  I scored in the top 3% in the country.
> I have taken a few IQ tests when I was a kid.  In the last one, I
> took, on entering high school, I apparently scored higher than anyone
> ever had in our district.
>
> >You just have an ego
>
> Not really.  But of I did, it would be well-earned.
>

You just rattled off a bunch of tests and scores that had nothing to
do with education certification and all to do with making yourself
look smart...but, you don't have an ego...right.

> >and an air of superiority to speak down to
>
> ... an idiot like you.
>
> My IQ would grant me that "superiority" if anyone cared.  
>

Spoken like a true Darwinian Socialist elitist. No ego there...right?

> >Just so you know...also.  ABCTE (one of the many things that is behind
> >me) just released the results of a review of their alumni.  A full 85
> >percent of their graduates that started teaching 3 years ago are STILL
> >there, three years later.  That beats the retention rates of most
> >schools and beats (by far) the national average of teacher retention
> >rates.
>
> Yawn.
>
> Let me know when there is an INDEPENDENT review.  Not that I care.
> Anyone who says you are qualified, has thereby invalidated themselves
> in my mind as an accrediting organization.

It was from an independent review by Mathmatica. However, your
subjective dismissal of colleges, accreditation boards, states, and
organizations shows you have lost your objectivity and are just
engaged in a personal vendetta....I must have really offended you,
somewhere. I apologize.

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

The_Carpathia wrote:
>OH...you wanna make it personal...got it. It's on.

It has been personal with you from your very first post. You think
people care about your personal opinions, and no one does.

>> >Dude.  I am highly qualified,
>>
>> Bullshit.  You are highly incompetent.
>>
>> Your posting have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
>> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>
>Of the two of us I am the ONLY one with Education coursework, teacher
>testing, Education certification, and state recognition in education.

Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.

>I am the ONLY one of us that the state declares "highly qualified" to teach

Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.

>yet, YOU think you have some air of authority...how?

You keep using that "A" word and I keep telling you that I have no
authority, want no authority, and need no authority.

I have the "R" word - respect from other posters, and you don't have
it, and you can't get it, and you are overweeningly jealous.

I don't want anything more than that (and I don't really *need* even
that, though I enjoy it)

>> >right now, according to state records.
>>
>> Oh.   You got your certificate, or are you still working on it?
>
>I have (in my possession) a state certificate of eligibility that says
>I am highly qualified and that once I am hired

IF you are hired. We can still hope the school district has sense.

>and complete the entry program

IF you complete it, without getting yourself into hot water with your
silly ideas and misunderstandings.

>(that all teachers take in Hillsborough Co) I will have a 5
>year certificate. Do you have said certificate?

No (and neither do you). And the difference is that I neither want
one nor need one.

>> >YOU, on the other hand, are a punk.
>>
>> Not hardly
>>
>> <Main Entry: 1punk  
>> <Pronunciation: \'p??k\
>> <Function: noun
>> <Etymology: origin unknown
>> <Date: 1596
>> <1archaic : prostitute
>> <2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
>> <3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a
>> < young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a
>> < young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
>> <4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles
>
>"nonsense....foolishness...inexperienced...novice" sounds right to me
>in the areas of Education.

Other people, including teachers, find my postings not to be nonsense
or foolishness, and have found yours to be the epitome of same.

I am not young, and have raised two kids to adulthood, so I am hardly
inexperienced. Since you haven't actually taught, and have only been
quasi-trained (and haven't finished even that), you are in fact a
novice and inexperienced.

>> >I have a college degree,
>>
>> From Falwell U, which means nothing positive to anyone with common
>> sense.
>
>No matter how many times you lie, it remains that LU is recognized by
>EVERY board of accreditation in every field it participates.

I don't give a damn. It isn't recognized as a real university by real
people of education and intelligence.

>EVERY single state accepts my degree, as well as every institution.

I don't. I laugh at your degree, and I laugh at you, because you
display less education than my two kids, neither of whom has finished
a year of college.

>YOUR school's graduate program would admit me with this degree,

I doubt it.

My own school gave me a degree, and I didn't try to get into the grad
program because I knew that wasn't good enough. 3.5 average or higher
was the ticket and no low grades in any course related to my major.

>Your degree gets no more respect at those education departments than mine,

Actually, it probably would, since mine is in the sciences, and there
are shortages in science education.

>even with your ego.

You are the guy with the ego, and a bruised one at that, not me.

>Further, I will undoubtedly have more history,
>politics, and business courses than you would have.

Possibly, but you didn't learn anything in them.

>> >19 hours of Education coursework,
>>
>> Yawn.
>>
>> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
>> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>
>All of those courses came from an NCATE and NEA approved education
>program.

We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.

>I am currently an NEA student member, due to that education
>program.

There are 3 million people who can claim at least that, and probably
all of them are smarter that you.

>...in which I scored highly and currently have a letter of
>recommendation from my mentor, there.

Yawn.

>> >have passed a general knowledge test,
>>
>> Yet you are a general know-nothing.
>
>Have YOU passed a general knowledge teacher test? No.

I haven't needed to do so, and my top percentile scores on earlier
testing indicate that I wouldn't have the slightest trouble.

>Have YOU taken them...no. Further, you just heard me say that only 40
>percent pass the ABCTE test.

The only people who take the damned test are those who aren't willing
to do the normal route to a credential. Just because a bunch of
losers like you take the test, and most of them fail, does not make
the test a difficult one.

>You just rattled off a bunch of tests and scores that had nothing to
>do with education certification

So? Nobody cares about yours, either (which was my point). In the
test of real life posting in these newsgroups, you are an utter
failure.

>and all to do with making yourself look smart..

Actually, those tests are mostly about other people deciding whether
one *IS* smart, and I did rather well at it. But I don't claim that
those tests make me more qualified than some. And I don't claim to be
an "authority"

>but, you don't have an ego...right.

Well, any Freudian would say that we all have egos.

But if my ego was especially important, I wouldn't be exercising it on
Usenet which is probably the most hazardous place on earth for an ego.

>> >and an air of superiority to speak down to
>>
>> ... an idiot like you.
>>
>> My IQ would grant me that "superiority" if anyone cared.  
>
>Spoken like a true Darwinian Socialist elitist.

I have no idea how any of those three adjectives have anything to do
with anything I said.

And I most certainly am NOT an elitist or a Social Darwinist (I have
no idea what a Darwinian Socialist would be).

>No ego there...right?

Not in anything I wrote. I'm merely explaining why your so-called
credentials are meaningless to me, and incidentally inviting you to
offer your scores on some test we both have taken, if you really feel
a need to compare yourself with me.

>> Let me know when there is an INDEPENDENT review.  Not that I care.
>> Anyone who says you are qualified, has thereby invalidated themselves
>> in my mind as an accrediting organization.
>
>It was from an independent review by Mathmatica. However, your
>subjective dismissal of colleges, accreditation boards, states, and
>organizations shows you have lost your objectivity and are just
>engaged in a personal vendetta....I must have really offended you,
>somewhere.

Every time you post nonsense is an offense to those of us who can
think and read (though cary finds it entertaining).

>I apologize.

Go ye and sin no more.

lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab RemoveThis @lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

On Jul 19, 2:47 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> The_Carpathia wrote:
> >OH...you wanna make it personal...got it.  It's on.
>
> It has been personal with you from your very first post.  You think
> people care about your personal opinions, and no one does.
>
> >> >Dude.  I am highly qualified,
>
> >> Bullshit.  You are highly incompetent.
>
> >> Your posting have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> >> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>
> >Of the two of us I am the ONLY one with Education coursework, teacher
> >testing, Education certification, and state recognition in education.
>
> Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>

Again, I am the only one with Education coursework, teacher testing,
Education certification, and state recognition in education. These
are required to have any authority in education, unless you have some
experience in the field. YOU have none of the above, yet you feel
authority to tell everyone how the education system should be...ego.

> >I am the ONLY one of us that the state declares "highly qualified" to teach
>
> Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>

I am still the only one that the state declares "highly qualified" to
teach.

> >yet, YOU think you have some air of authority...how?
>
> You keep using that "A" word and I keep telling you that I have no
> authority, want no authority, and need no authority.

I'm glad you realize you are just talking out of your ass.

>
> >> >right now, according to state records.
>
> >> Oh.   You got your certificate, or are you still working on it?
>
> >I have (in my possession) a state certificate of eligibility that says
> >I am highly qualified and that once I am hired
>
> IF you are hired.  We can still hope the school district has sense.
>

And...of course...if they hire me THEY are wrong and not you...right
(ego)? You are so predictable.

> >and complete the entry program
>
> IF you complete it, without getting yourself into hot water with your
> silly ideas and misunderstandings.
>

Where in my job would there be place to mention anything that I am
saying to you here? It's a different audience. There I'll be
teaching Math and English, not politics, religion, or how big of an
ass you are.

> >(that all teachers take in Hillsborough Co) I will have a 5
> >year certificate.  Do you have said certificate?
>
> No (and neither do you).  And the difference is that I neither want
> one nor need one.
>

...to speak out of your ass...correct.

>
>
> >> >YOU, on the other hand, are a punk.
>
> >> Not hardly
>
> >> <Main Entry: 1punk  
> >> <Pronunciation: \'p??k\
> >> <Function: noun
> >> <Etymology: origin unknown
> >> <Date: 1596
> >> <1archaic : prostitute
> >> <2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
> >> <3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a
> >> < young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a
> >> < young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
> >> <4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles
>
> >"nonsense....foolishness...inexperienced...novice" sounds right to me
> >in the areas of Education.
>
> Other people, including teachers, find my postings not to be nonsense
> or foolishness, and have found yours to be the epitome of same.
>
> I am not young, and have raised two kids to adulthood, so I am hardly
> inexperienced.  Since you haven't actually taught, and have only been
> quasi-trained (and haven't finished even that), you are in fact a
> novice and inexperienced.
>

Yet...you sent them to school and didn't teach them their
schoolwork...right? Meanwhile, I taught an ADHD child for 6 years in
my house that got straight A's upon entry to the public school
system. Also, I finished all the training that I need for
certification and have the statement of eligibility to show it.
Again...if we are using training as a basis of reference, I am the
only one of the two of us that have Education courses, testings, and
state recognition.

> >> >I have a college degree,
>
> >> From Falwell U, which means nothing positive to anyone with common
> >> sense.
>
> >No matter how many times you lie, it remains that LU is recognized by
> >EVERY board of accreditation in every field it participates.
>
> I don't give a damn.  It isn't recognized as a real university by real
> people of education and intelligence.
>

That would be you, alone...apparently, since every accreditation board
and state recognizes it.

> >EVERY single state accepts my degree, as well as every institution.
>
> I don't.  I laugh at your degree, and I laugh at you, because you
> display less education than my two kids, neither of whom has finished
> a year of college.
>

Bingo. YOU...it's all about you.

> >YOUR school's graduate program would admit me with this degree,
>
> I doubt it.
>
> My own school gave me a degree, and I didn't try to get into the grad
> program because I knew that wasn't good enough.  3.5 average or higher
> was the ticket and no low grades in any course related to my major.
>

I already showed you the school admission info that shows they accept
LU. Go back and read it.

> >Your degree gets no more respect at those education departments than mine,
>
> Actually, it probably would, since mine is in the sciences, and there
> are shortages in science education.
>

There are also shortages in other fields, such as elementary
education. Elementary education requires diverse coursework...which
of the two of us, I have. What is it with science grads that they
think they are god....ego.

> >even with your ego.
>
> You are the guy with the ego, and a bruised one at that, not me.
>

You are speaking of yourself...right. I posted an article about
education issues of McCain and Obama and said nothing about you.
However, you jumped on here and attacked me personally. Ego.

> >Further, I will undoubtedly have more history,
> >politics, and business courses than you would have.
>
> Possibly, but you didn't learn anything in them.
>

Says the one with less coursework.

> >> >19 hours of Education coursework,
>
> >> Yawn.
>
> >> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
> >> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>
> >All of those courses came from an NCATE and NEA approved education
> >program.
>
> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>

So, now, NEA is right wing? Your list of the conservative conspiracy
just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

> >I am currently an NEA student member, due to that education
> >program.
>
> There are 3 million people who can claim at least that, and probably
> all of them are smarter that you.
>

Are you among them...no.

> >...in which I scored highly and currently have a letter of
> >recommendation from my mentor, there.
>
> Yawn.
>
> >> >have passed a general knowledge test,
>
> >> Yet you are a general know-nothing.
>
> >Have YOU passed a general knowledge teacher test?  No.
>
> I haven't needed to do so, and my top percentile scores on earlier
> testing indicate that I wouldn't have the slightest trouble.
>

Needed to do so for what. Think about it. You said..."I haven't
needed to." In teaching, you DO need to. Why do you think they
require testing in order to enter teaching?

> >Have YOU taken them...no.  Further, you just heard me say that only 40
> >percent pass the ABCTE test.
>
> The only people who take the damned test are those who aren't willing
> to do the normal route to a credential.  Just because a bunch of
> losers like you take the test, and most of them fail, does not make
> the test a difficult one.
>

Really. A bunch of losers?
...from a 2007 survey of candidates....
M.A. 220
M.Ed. 105
M.S. 265
M.B.A. 153
Ed.D. 10
J.D. 50
M.D. 10
Ph.D. 78

I guess someone needs to tell those Masters degree, J.D. degree,a nd
Ph.D. holders that they are stupid losers.

Also, from the ABCTE site...

* 95% of principals rated our teachers to be as effective or more
effective than their peers.
* 100% of principals surveyed would be willing to hire an ABCTE-
certified teacher.
* 24% of ABCTE candidates are minorities and 32% are pursuing
certification in math and science.
* Passport to Teaching is a rigorous certification program where
only 40% of candidates complete the program.
* ABCTE teacher retention is 93% over the first two years compared
to 84% nationwide.

> >You just rattled off a bunch of tests and scores that had nothing to
> >do with education certification
>
> So?  Nobody cares about yours, either (which was my point).  In the
> test of real life posting in these newsgroups, you are an utter
> failure.
>

You fail to understand authority, again. Authority is when those in
the industry give you accreditation to do what you do. I have the
authority to teach, you do not. I have authority among churches to
preach (separately), which you do not. You couldn't get a job in
either a church or a school (without completing a certification
method...like I have). Thus, among those that matters, my credentials
is accepted as satisfying, while yours are deficient.

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

"Wide Eyed in Wonder" wrote in message

On Jul 19, 2:47 pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> The_Carpathia wrote:
> >OH...you wanna make it personal...got it. It's on.
>
> It has been personal with you from your very first post. You think
> people care about your personal opinions, and no one does.
>
> >> >Dude. I am highly qualified,
>
> >> Bullshit. You are highly incompetent.
>
> >> Your posting have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> >> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>
> >Of the two of us I am the ONLY one with Education coursework, teacher
> >testing, Education certification, and state recognition in education.
>
> Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>

Again, I am the only one with Education coursework, teacher testing,
Education certification, and state recognition in education. These
are required to have any authority in education, unless you have some
experience in the field. YOU have none of the above, yet you feel
authority to tell everyone how the education system should be...ego.

Absolutely a lie.

I have all that course work, and I have the expereince in the classroom that
you lack. Anfdd I ma not an authority.

OTOHthe members of my school board, all of whom are lelected official and
none of whom have any education in education, _have_ authority in education.

My local college of eduation has a small gorup of professors who , through
research and inestogation, are , at least locally, authorities in early
childhood education.

YOU are no more than a novice wannabe who knows just enough to be
dangerous.

Larry


> >I am the ONLY one of us that the state declares "highly qualified" to
> >teach
>
> Your postings have demonstrated that haven't got reading comprehension
> skills sufficient to teach YOURSELF to read, much less anyone else.
>

I am still the only one that the state declares "highly qualified" to
teach.

> >yet, YOU think you have some air of authority...how?
>
> You keep using that "A" word and I keep telling you that I have no
> authority, want no authority, and need no authority.

I'm glad you realize you are just talking out of your ass.

>
> >> >right now, according to state records.
>
> >> Oh. You got your certificate, or are you still working on it?
>
> >I have (in my possession) a state certificate of eligibility that says
> >I am highly qualified and that once I am hired
>
> IF you are hired. We can still hope the school district has sense.
>

And...of course...if they hire me THEY are wrong and not you...right
(ego)? You are so predictable.

> >and complete the entry program
>
> IF you complete it, without getting yourself into hot water with your
> silly ideas and misunderstandings.
>

Where in my job would there be place to mention anything that I am
saying to you here? It's a different audience. There I'll be
teaching Math and English, not politics, religion, or how big of an
ass you are.

> >(that all teachers take in Hillsborough Co) I will have a 5
> >year certificate. Do you have said certificate?
>
> No (and neither do you). And the difference is that I neither want
> one nor need one.
>

....to speak out of your ass...correct.

>
>
> >> >YOU, on the other hand, are a punk.
>
> >> Not hardly
>
> >> <Main Entry: 1punk
> >> <Pronunciation: \'p??k\
> >> <Function: noun
> >> <Etymology: origin unknown
> >> <Date: 1596
> >> <1archaic : prostitute
> >> <2[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
> >> <3 a: a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a
> >> < young man b: a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian cslang : a
> >> < young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison
> >> <4 a: punk rock b: a punk rock musician c: one who affects punk styles
>
> >"nonsense....foolishness...inexperienced...novice" sounds right to me
> >in the areas of Education.
>
> Other people, including teachers, find my postings not to be nonsense
> or foolishness, and have found yours to be the epitome of same.
>
> I am not young, and have raised two kids to adulthood, so I am hardly
> inexperienced. Since you haven't actually taught, and have only been
> quasi-trained (and haven't finished even that), you are in fact a
> novice and inexperienced.
>

Yet...you sent them to school and didn't teach them their
schoolwork...right? Meanwhile, I taught an ADHD child for 6 years in
my house that got straight A's upon entry to the public school
system. Also, I finished all the training that I need for
certification and have the statement of eligibility to show it.
Again...if we are using training as a basis of reference, I am the
only one of the two of us that have Education courses, testings, and
state recognition.

> >> >I have a college degree,
>
> >> From Falwell U, which means nothing positive to anyone with common
> >> sense.
>
> >No matter how many times you lie, it remains that LU is recognized by
> >EVERY board of accreditation in every field it participates.
>
> I don't give a damn. It isn't recognized as a real university by real
> people of education and intelligence.
>

That would be you, alone...apparently, since every accreditation board
and state recognizes it.

> >EVERY single state accepts my degree, as well as every institution.
>
> I don't. I laugh at your degree, and I laugh at you, because you
> display less education than my two kids, neither of whom has finished
> a year of college.
>

Bingo. YOU...it's all about you.

> >YOUR school's graduate program would admit me with this degree,
>
> I doubt it.
>
> My own school gave me a degree, and I didn't try to get into the grad
> program because I knew that wasn't good enough. 3.5 average or higher
> was the ticket and no low grades in any course related to my major.
>

I already showed you the school admission info that shows they accept
LU. Go back and read it.

> >Your degree gets no more respect at those education departments than
> >mine,
>
> Actually, it probably would, since mine is in the sciences, and there
> are shortages in science education.
>

There are also shortages in other fields, such as elementary
education. Elementary education requires diverse coursework...which
of the two of us, I have. What is it with science grads that they
think they are god....ego.

> >even with your ego.
>
> You are the guy with the ego, and a bruised one at that, not me.
>

You are speaking of yourself...right. I posted an article about
education issues of McCain and Obama and said nothing about you.
However, you jumped on here and attacked me personally. Ego.

> >Further, I will undoubtedly have more history,
> >politics, and business courses than you would have.
>
> Possibly, but you didn't learn anything in them.
>

Says the one with less coursework.

> >> >19 hours of Education coursework,
>
> >> Yawn.
>
> >> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
> >> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>
> >All of those courses came from an NCATE and NEA approved education
> >program.
>
> We've heard what the right wing thinks of education coursework, and
> you haven't demonstrated on this forum that you learned anything.
>

So, now, NEA is right wing? Your list of the conservative conspiracy
just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

> >I am currently an NEA student member, due to that education
> >program.
>
> There are 3 million people who can claim at least that, and probably
> all of them are smarter that you.
>

Are you among them...no.

> >...in which I scored highly and currently have a letter of
> >recommendation from my mentor, there.
>
> Yawn.
>
> >> >have passed a general knowledge test,
>
> >> Yet you are a general know-nothing.
>
> >Have YOU passed a general knowledge teacher test? No.
>
> I haven't needed to do so, and my top percentile scores on earlier
> testing indicate that I wouldn't have the slightest trouble.
>

Needed to do so for what. Think about it. You said..."I haven't
needed to." In teaching, you DO need to. Why do you think they
require testing in order to enter teaching?

> >Have YOU taken them...no. Further, you just heard me say that only 40
> >percent pass the ABCTE test.
>
> The only people who take the damned test are those who aren't willing
> to do the normal route to a credential. Just because a bunch of
> losers like you take the test, and most of them fail, does not make
> the test a difficult one.
>

Really. A bunch of losers?
....from a 2007 survey of candidates....
M.A. 220
M.Ed. 105
M.S. 265
M.B.A. 153
Ed.D. 10
J.D. 50
M.D. 10
Ph.D. 78

I guess someone needs to tell those Masters degree, J.D. degree,a nd
Ph.D. holders that they are stupid losers.

Also, from the ABCTE site...

* 95% of principals rated our teachers to be as effective or more
effective than their peers.
* 100% of principals surveyed would be willing to hire an ABCTE-
certified teacher.
* 24% of ABCTE candidates are minorities and 32% are pursuing
certification in math and science.
* Passport to Teaching is a rigorous certification program where
only 40% of candidates complete the program.
* ABCTE teacher retention is 93% over the first two years compared
to 84% nationwide.

> >You just rattled off a bunch of tests and scores that had nothing to
> >do with education certification
>
> So? Nobody cares about yours, either (which was my point). In the
> test of real life posting in these newsgroups, you are an utter
> failure.
>

You fail to understand authority, again. Authority is when those in
the industry give you accreditation to do what you do. I have the
authority to teach, you do not. I have authority among churches to
preach (separately), which you do not. You couldn't get a job in
either a church or a school (without completing a certification
method...like I have). Thus, among those that matters, my credentials
is accepted as satisfying, while yours are deficient.

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

On Jul 20, 10:40 am, "Larry Hewitt" wrote:

> OTOHthe members of my school board, all of whom are lelected official and
> none of whom have any education in education, _have_ authority in education.
>
> My local college of eduation has a small gorup of professors who , through
> research and inestogation, are , at least locally, authorities in early
> childhood education.
>
> YOU are no more than a novice  wannabe who knows just enough to be
> dangerous.
>
> Larry

So, it it your view that training gives authority, which would
invalidate Bob?

Kenneth Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education 

The_Carpathia wrote:

>On Jul 20, 10:40 am, "Larry Hewitt" wrote:
>
>> OTOHthe members of my school board, all of whom are lelected official and
>> none of whom have any education in education, _have_ authority in education.
>>
>> My local college of eduation has a small gorup of professors who , through
>> research and inestogation, are , at least locally, authorities in early
>> childhood education.
>>
>> YOU are no more than a novice  wannabe who knows just enough to be
>> dangerous.
>>
>> Larry
>
>So, it it your view that training gives authority,

How could you conclude that, when he said quite the contrary.

The school board has no training, but has authority.

A group of professors have limited local authority through research
(peer-reviewed) and investigation.

Neither example has authority from having taken courses.

lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab RemoveThis @lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
 >> Stay informed about: AGREEMENT of McCain and Obama on Education