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Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT!

 
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slipuvalad

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Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:22 pm
Post subject: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT!
Archived from groups: alt>college, others (more info?)

Among young people in this generation of American "students," where a
grade point average is seldom below 3.5, there are many who think
Machiavelli's "The Prince" and almost ALL books are NOVELS!

Educators and scholars are finding that fewer and fewer high school and
college students today are thoroughgoing literates. A large percentage
of them find reading "uncool."

And this is a growing concern because studies show that people who
cannot analyze and understand the gist and meaning of what they read
are prone to blind obedience to authority and the foolish and often
harmful mistakes that are bred of IGNORANCE!

The next time you're tempted to gush to the neighbors about your
Brown-bound kid's 4.0, first casually ask your scholar about the books
she or he have been reading. Their answers might be surprising.
------

"Writing Off Reading"

By Michael Skube
OUTLOOK, The Washington Post
Sunday, August 20, 2006; B03

We were talking informally in class not long ago, 17 college sophomores
and I, and on a whim I asked who some of their favorite writers are.
The question hung in uneasy silence. At length, a voice in the rear
hesitantly volunteered the name of . . . Dan Brown.

No other names were offered.

The author of "The DaVinci Code" was not just the best writer they
could think of; he was the only writer they could think of.

In our better private universities and flagship state schools today,
it's hard to find a student who graduated from high school with much
lower than a 3.5 GPA, and not uncommon to find students whose GPAs were
4.0 or higher. They somehow got these suspect grades without having
read much. Or if they did read, they've given it up. And it shows -- in
their writing and even in their conversation.

A few years ago, I began keeping a list of everyday words that may as
well have been potholes in exchanges with college students. It began
with a fellow who was two months away from graduating from a
well-respected Midwestern university.

"And what was the impetus for that?" I asked as he finished a
presentation.
At the word "impetus" his head snapped sideways, as if by reflex. "The
what?" he asked.

"The impetus. What gave rise to it? What prompted it?"

I wouldn't have guessed that impetus was a 25-cent word. But I also
wouldn't have guessed that "ramshackle" and "lucid" were exactly
recondite, either. I've had to explain both. You can be dead certain
that today's college students carry a weekly planner. But they may or
may not own a dictionary, and if they do own one, it doesn't get much
use. ("Why do you need a dictionary when you can just go online?" more
than one student has asked me.)

You may be surprised -- and dismayed -- by some of the words on my
list.

"Advocate," for example. Neither the verb nor the noun was immediately
clear to students who had graduated from high school with GPAs above
3.5. A few others:
"Derelict," as in neglectful.

"Satire," as in a literary form.

"Pith," as in the heart of the matter.

"Brevity," as in the quality of being succinct.

And my favorite: "Novel," as in new and as a literary form. College
students nowadays call any book, fact or fiction, a novel. I have no
idea why this is, but I first became acquainted with the peculiarity
when a senior at one of the country's better state universities wrote a
paper in which she referred to "The Prince" as "Machiavelli's novel."

As freshmen start showing up for classes this month, colleges will have
a new influx of high school graduates with gilded GPAs, and it won't be
long before one professor whispers to another: Did no one teach these
kids basic English? The unhappy truth is that many students are
hard-pressed to string together coherent sentences, to tell a pronoun
from a preposition, even to distinguish between "then" and "than." Yet
they got A's.

How does one explain the inability of college students to read or write
at even a high school level? One explanation, which owes as much to the
culture as to the schools, is that kids don't read for pleasure. And
because they don't read, they are less able to navigate the language.
If words are the coin of their thought, they're working with little
more than pocket change.

Say this -- but no more -- for the Bush administration's No Child Left
Behind Act: It at least recognizes the problem. What we're graduating
from our high schools isn't college material. Sometimes it isn't even
good high school material.

When students with A averages can't write simple English, it shouldn't
be surprising that people ask what a high school diploma is really
worth. In California this year, hundreds of high school students, many
with good grades, faced the prospect of not graduating because they
could not pass a state-mandated exit exam. Although a judge overturned
the effort, legislators (not always so literate themselves) in other
states have also called for exit exams. It's hardly unreasonable to ask
that students demonstrate a minimum competency in basic subjects,
especially English.

Exit exams have become almost a necessity because the GPA is not to be
trusted. In my experience, a high SAT score is far more reliable than a
high GPA -- more indicative of quickness and acuity, and more
reflective of familiarity with language and ideas. College admissions
specialists are of a different view and are apt to label the student
with high SAT scores but mediocre grades unmotivated, even lazy.

I'll take that student any day. I've known such students. They may have
been bored in high school but they read widely and without prodding
from a parent. And they could have nominated a few favorite writers
besides Dan Brown -- even if they thoroughly enjoyed "The DaVinci
Code."

I suspect they would have understood the point I tried unsuccessfully
to make once when I quoted Joseph Pulitzer to my students. It is
journalism's job, he said, to comfort the afflicted and afflict the
comfortable. Too obvious, you think? I might have thought so myself --
if the words "afflicted" and "afflict" hadn't stumped the whole class.

mskube RemoveThis @elon.edu

Michael Skube teaches journalism at Elon University in Elon, N.C.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/18/AR2006...800976.

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Bob LeChevalier

External


Since: Feb 20, 2004
Posts: 4008



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

slipuvalad.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>Among young people in this generation of American "students," where a
>grade point average is seldom below 3.5, there are many who think
>Machiavelli's "The Prince" and almost ALL books are NOVELS!

That is NOT what the article says. The article says that in certain
prestige universities, the high school GPA of those admitted is seldom
below 3.5

>------
>
>"Writing Off Reading"
>By Michael Skube
>OUTLOOK, The Washington Post
>Sunday, August 20, 2006; B03
>
>We were talking informally in class not long ago, 17 college sophomores
>and I, and on a whim I asked who some of their favorite writers are.
>The question hung in uneasy silence. At length, a voice in the rear
>hesitantly volunteered the name of . . . Dan Brown.
>
>No other names were offered.
>
>The author of "The DaVinci Code" was not just the best writer they
>could think of; he was the only writer they could think of.

which may mean some or all of the following, in combination
a) they've been studying their textbooks so much that haven't had time
for free reading
b) they don't bother to remember the authors' names because it is
useless information to them
c) the books that they read are chosen for subject matter, and not
because they like the writer (whose name, per b, they may not have
noticed)
d) they are considering their audience, and may have favorites, but
none that they are willing to admit to an professor.

>In our better private universities and flagship state schools today,
>it's hard to find a student who graduated from high school with much
>lower than a 3.5 GPA, and not uncommon to find students whose GPAs were
>4.0 or higher. They somehow got these suspect grades without having
>read much. Or if they did read, they've given it up.

That does not follow. It means that they haven't read anything that
they *enjoyed*, because reading has been their work, and not their
pleasure.

>"Advocate," for example. Neither the verb nor the noun was immediately
>clear to students who had graduated from high school with GPAs above
>3.5. A few others:
>"Derelict," as in neglectful.
>
>"Satire," as in a literary form.
>
>"Pith," as in the heart of the matter.
>
>"Brevity," as in the quality of being succinct.
>
>And my favorite: "Novel," as in new and as a literary form. College
>students nowadays call any book, fact or fiction, a novel. I have no
>idea why this is, but I first became acquainted with the peculiarity
>when a senior at one of the country's better state universities wrote a
>paper in which she referred to "The Prince" as "Machiavelli's novel."

Language evolves, and words don't mean what they used to mean. Words
pass out of favor. Why say "derelict" if it means "neglectful" which
more people can understand and relate to? Why say "pith" and not
"heart of the matter"?

>How does one explain the inability of college students to read or write
>at even a high school level?

Probably that someone has a misguided concept of reading or writing
"at a high school level"?

I was an English honors student in college; I had been considered a
relatively good writer in high school. My essays got covered in red
in my freshman year. High school writing is not college-level
writing. (And there were never many kids or adults who read as
voraciously as I read in high school - a new book every day or two).

>One explanation, which owes as much to the
>culture as to the schools, is that kids don't read for pleasure. And
>because they don't read, they are less able to navigate the language.

Or they use different language.

>Say this -- but no more -- for the Bush administration's No Child Left
>Behind Act: It at least recognizes the problem.

Not in the least. It won't do a damn thing for a 4.0 student who
doesn't do any free reading. It won't encourage free reading at all.
And it likely won't encourage superfluous use of erudite vocabulary to
adorn ones prosaic productions.

>What we're graduating
>from our high schools isn't college material. Sometimes it isn't even
>good high school material.

The author apparently has no clue what "college material" is.

>When students with A averages can't write simple English, it shouldn't
>be surprising that people ask what a high school diploma is really
>worth.

It has NEVER meant anything more than 12 years of seat time, doing
some minimal amount of homework.

>In California this year, hundreds of high school students, many
>with good grades, faced the prospect of not graduating because they
>could not pass a state-mandated exit exam.

I haven't seen anything saying that the students in question had "good
grades". The discussions I have seen indicate that most of them are
language minorities who struggled to get passing grades.

>Although a judge overturned
>the effort, legislators (not always so literate themselves) in other
>states have also called for exit exams. It's hardly unreasonable to ask
>that students demonstrate a minimum competency in basic subjects,
>especially English.

That is a lot easier for an English native-speaker to say.

>Exit exams have become almost a necessity because the GPA is not to be
>trusted. In my experience, a high SAT score is far more reliable than a
>high GPA -- more indicative of quickness and acuity, and more
>reflective of familiarity with language and ideas.

I'll bet that those students at the beginning of the essay who could
not name an author all had superb SAT scores, in the top 5% of the
country.

>College admissions
>specialists are of a different view and are apt to label the student
>with high SAT scores but mediocre grades unmotivated, even lazy.

Since they see lots of kids with high SAT scores AND high grades, of
course they find ones lacking the latter less preferable. But the
author, who may value a student willing to challenge his authority
more than most college professors, has a different perspective.

>I'll take that student any day. I've known such students. They may have
>been bored in high school but they read widely and without prodding
>from a parent.

They are good at doing what they want to do, but not at doing what
they are expected to do. What they are supposed to do does not
include much free reading.

The concept of SATs is that they supposedly help predict first year
success in college, but only when coupled with GPA. One needs both
aspects of educational achievement to succeed in college - a lot of
prerequisite skill in vocabulary and analytical thinking, and success
at ass-kissing of the authority figures that give grades.

>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/18/AR2006081800976.html

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Tony Cooper

External


Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 3



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:10:26 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab RemoveThis @lojban.org> wrote:

>>We were talking informally in class not long ago, 17 college sophomores
>>and I, and on a whim I asked who some of their favorite writers are.
>>The question hung in uneasy silence. At length, a voice in the rear
>>hesitantly volunteered the name of . . . Dan Brown.
>>
>>No other names were offered.
>>
>>The author of "The DaVinci Code" was not just the best writer they
>>could think of; he was the only writer they could think of.
>
>which may mean some or all of the following, in combination
>a) they've been studying their textbooks so much that haven't had time
>for free reading
>b) they don't bother to remember the authors' names because it is
>useless information to them
>c) the books that they read are chosen for subject matter, and not
>because they like the writer (whose name, per b, they may not have
>noticed)
>d) they are considering their audience, and may have favorites, but
>none that they are willing to admit to an professor.

I'm far past my college days, I read an average of over two books
(fiction) a week, and I couldn't come up with the names of two of the
authors of the books I've read in the last months.

I keep a slip of paper in my car's glove compartment where I keep my
library card, and I sometimes jot down the name of the author of a
book I've liked. I usually forget to do so, though, and I usually
forget to take the slip of paper into the library.

When I browse in the library I read the dust jackets and pick out
books that seem like they might interest me. Sometimes I'll choose a
book because I notice that it's by the same author of a book I've
read, but I only know this because the book I've read is right there
on the shelf.

I could come up Dan Brown's name because I've read TDC, but the only
reason I remember Brown's name is because the book is mentioned so
damned often in so many places.

I just finished a book that was OK, but not great, but OK enough that
I would take out another book by the same author. I finished it
yesterday. I have no idea of the name of the author.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
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Frank ess

External


Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:10:26 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
> <lojbab.RemoveThis@lojban.org> wrote:
>
>>> We were talking informally in class not long ago, 17 college
>>> sophomores and I, and on a whim I asked who some of their favorite
>>> writers are. The question hung in uneasy silence. At length, a
>>> voice in the rear hesitantly volunteered the name of . . . Dan
>>> Brown.
>>>
>>> No other names were offered.
>>>
>>> The author of "The DaVinci Code" was not just the best writer they
>>> could think of; he was the only writer they could think of.
>>
>> which may mean some or all of the following, in combination
>> a) they've been studying their textbooks so much that haven't had
>> time for free reading
>> b) they don't bother to remember the authors' names because it is
>> useless information to them
>> c) the books that they read are chosen for subject matter, and not
>> because they like the writer (whose name, per b, they may not have
>> noticed)
>> d) they are considering their audience, and may have favorites, but
>> none that they are willing to admit to an professor.
>
> I'm far past my college days, I read an average of over two books
> (fiction) a week, and I couldn't come up with the names of two of
> the
> authors of the books I've read in the last months.
>

When you say "over two books", do you mean what I mean when I say
"more than"?

> I keep a slip of paper in my car's glove compartment where I keep my
> library card, and I sometimes jot down the name of the author of a
> book I've liked. I usually forget to do so, though, and I usually
> forget to take the slip of paper into the library.
>
> When I browse in the library I read the dust jackets and pick out
> books that seem like they might interest me. Sometimes I'll choose
> a
> book because I notice that it's by the same author of a book I've
> read, but I only know this because the book I've read is right there
> on the shelf.
>
> I could come up Dan Brown's name because I've read TDC, but the only
> reason I remember Brown's name is because the book is mentioned so
> damned often in so many places.
>
> I just finished a book that was OK, but not great, but OK enough
> that
> I would take out another book by the same author. I finished it
> yesterday. I have no idea of the name of the author.

My mother was voracious and omniverous as a reader, sometimes reading
ten or a dozen in a week. During WWII when gasoline was _are ay are
ee_ and public libraries far, she'd pay the nickle-a-day-each to the
slow-revolving rental library in the corner "drugstore". She couldn't
remember titles or authors very well, and took to putting a tick mark
by a selected page number (that she _could_ remember) after a couple
experiences reading a third or half a book she'd already done.

--
Frank ess
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Tony Cooper

External


Since: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 3



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:31:09 -0700, "Frank ess" <frank DeleteThis @fshe2fs.com>
wrote:

>> I'm far past my college days, I read an average of over two books
>> (fiction) a week, and I couldn't come up with the names of two of
>> the
>> authors of the books I've read in the last months.
>>
>
>When you say "over two books", do you mean what I mean when I say
>"more than"?

Quite possibly.

>My mother was voracious and omniverous as a reader, sometimes reading
>ten or a dozen in a week.

I'm generally more relaxed when I read.
--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
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Robert Bannister

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Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:36 am
Post subject: Re: Stars - was Your "A" Student Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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slipuvalad RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:

> Among young people in this generation of American "students," where a
> grade point average is seldom below 3.5, there are many who think
> Machiavelli's "The Prince" and almost ALL books are NOVELS!

Since this already has a thread going, I feel justified in going off
tangentially. I think I have finally worked out film ratings.

Most reviewers, especially for TV and DVD guides, rate movies out of 5,
and for years I couldn't work out what they meant. Now, I think I have
solved it.

1 star - rarely given, so ignore it, but they are probably correct.
2 stars - a "genre" film (eg horror, sf, etc.) - if you like this type
of film, you'll almost certainly enjoy it.
3 stars - avoid this; it means B movie.
3.5 stars - this appears to be the average. The reviewer likes bits of
it, but you probably won't.
4 stars - either by a famous or weird director, or it features famous
actors. Likely to be in black and white, and you will hate this film.
5 stars - the reviewers didn't actually see this film, but it was a huge
box-office success, so if you like pop movies, it will be OK.

Either there is a shortage of good movies, or the star rating system
doesn't cover them.
--
Rob Bannister
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Old Fogey

External


Since: Aug 21, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Stars - was Your "A" Student Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Robert Bannister <robban RemoveThis @it.net.au> wrote,
in article <4ksdl0Fdi6c4U1 RemoveThis @individual.net>:
>slipuvalad@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Among young people in this generation of American "students," where a
>> grade point average is seldom below 3.5, there are many who think
>> Machiavelli's "The Prince" and almost ALL books are NOVELS!
>
>Since this already has a thread going, I feel justified in going off
>tangentially. I think I have finally worked out film ratings.
>
>Most reviewers, especially for TV and DVD guides, rate movies out of 5,
>and for years I couldn't work out what they meant. Now, I think I have
>solved it.
>
>1 star - rarely given, so ignore it, but they are probably correct.

Martin&Porter[*] give a "turkey" for that rating.

>2 stars - a "genre" film (eg horror, sf, etc.) - if you like this type
>of film, you'll almost certainly enjoy it.
>3 stars - avoid this; it means B movie.
>3.5 stars - this appears to be the average. The reviewer likes bits of
>it, but you probably won't.
>4 stars - either by a famous or weird director, or it features famous
>actors. Likely to be in black and white, and you will hate this film.
>5 stars - the reviewers didn't actually see this film, but it was a huge
>box-office success, so if you like pop movies, it will be OK.
>
>Either there is a shortage of good movies, or the star rating system
>doesn't cover them.


Adrian Pepper.
[*] "DVD & Video Guide 200X", Mick Martin & Marsha Porter
I could not remember the authors, and could not locate the book in a
web search, and then I remembered last year's copy is on the shelf just
above my head.

-- Do not use the proprietary name of a specific World Wide Web search
engine or site as a verb to refer to the process of performing an
automated World Wide Web search.
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Ignotus

External


Since: Aug 23, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Dad, Mom: Your "A" Student Probably Is IGNORANT! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>college, others (more info?)

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
>
> Language evolves, and words don't mean what they used to mean. Words
> pass out of favor. Why say "derelict" if it means "neglectful" which
> more people can understand and relate to? Why say "pith" and not
> "heart of the matter"?
>

We can, of course, introduce "Newspeak", even if we never mention Orwell.
That way, we could credit ourselves with a "good plus plus" vocabulary with
little more than a thousand words, almost all of just one syllable.
(Doubtless our Australopithecine ancestors managed quite well with nothing
more than grunts and squeals.)

Where's that dictionary? Maybe I can not only delete "neglectful" but also
"absent-minded", "abstracted", "apathetic", "careless", "day-dreaming",
"defaulting", "delinquent", "derelict", "detached", "dilatory",
"distracted", "distrait(e)", "failing", "foolish", "forgetful", "heedless",
"ill-considered", "imprudent", "inattentive", "inconsiderate",
"indifferent", "indiscreet", "indolent", "irresponsible", "lax", "lazy",
"negligent", "oblivious", "oscitant", "reckless", "remiss", "slack",
"slapdash", "slipshod", "sloppy", "slovenly", "thoughtless", "uncaring",
"unconcerned", "unheeding", "unmindful", "unobservant", "unreflective",
"unthinking", "unwary" - and thousands and thousands of others.

Unless that would be bad minus. (Sorry, bad- )
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