Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:39:22 -0000, Finest <Finest.TakeThisOut@Baltimore.gov>
wrote:

>brojack@windswept.net (BroJack) said
>news:ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8@news.meganetnews.com:
>
>> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>> By Joanne Jacobs
>> Nine-year-olds who use calculators can't compute on their own,
>> concludes an analysis of National Assessment of Educational
>> Progress (NAEP) scores by Tom Loveless of the Brown Center on
>> Education Policy.
>>
>> CER Newswire notes: In subtraction, students scored 89.2
>> percent with calculators and 59.7 without; in multiplication,
>> 87.9 percent with calculators and 42.5 without; and in division,
>> 77.1 percent with and 48.3 without.
>>
>> Letting students use calculators on tests of computation skills
>> makes the tests worthless, Loveless concluded.
>
>
>And this has what to do with Baltimore, Maryland?

*I* have to do with Baltimore, Md.

And this post is especially appropriate given Baltimore's deplorable
educational system.

BroJack
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

brojack.TakeThisOut@windswept.net (BroJack) said
news:408b1a76.54893392@news.prodigy.net:

> *I* have to do with Baltimore, Md.
> And this post is especially appropriate given Baltimore's
> deplorable educational system.


The original story has NOTHING to do with Baltimore.
You and Herr "DUTCH" should do a better job spreading your false
innuendo. Someone might just call you on it.
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:52:59 -0000, Finest <Finest DeleteThis @Baltimore.gov>
wrote:

>brojack@windswept.net (BroJack) said
>news:408b1a76.54893392@news.prodigy.net:
>
>> *I* have to do with Baltimore, Md.
>> And this post is especially appropriate given Baltimore's
>> deplorable educational system.
>
>
>The original story has NOTHING to do with Baltimore.
>You and Herr "DUTCH" should do a better job spreading your false
>innuendo. Someone might just call you on it.

You saying that there are no dummies in Baltimore schools?

You, for example, sound like a Dunbar boy.

BroJack
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

zip.RemoveThis@home.net (BroJack) said
news:dfaacc8d753c598081771d16746a7962@news.teranews.com:

> You saying that there are no dummies in Baltimore schools?
> You, for example, sound like a Dunbar boy.
> BroJack


Please don't show your ignorance by putting words in my mouth. I
said the story had nothing to do with Baltimore. It was a generic
story concerning ALL high schools in The United States. By your
logic, a story about Columbine proves there are too many kids with
guns in Baltimore schools. But you knew that.

And there goes your racist side showing through again "Bro"...
Not a Dunbar "kid" or Dunbar "student".. but a Dunbar "boy". Ho
sad for you.
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:46:59 -0000, Finest <Finest RemoveThis @Baltimore.gov>
wrote:

>zip@home.net (BroJack) said
>news:dfaacc8d753c598081771d16746a7962@news.teranews.com:
>
>> You saying that there are no dummies in Baltimore schools?
>> You, for example, sound like a Dunbar boy.
>> BroJack
>
>
>Please don't show your ignorance by putting words in my mouth. I
>said the story had nothing to do with Baltimore. It was a generic
>story concerning ALL high schools in The United States.

And there are high schools in Baltimore with dummies using
calculators, duh.

> By your
>logic, a story about Columbine proves there are too many kids with
>guns in Baltimore schools. But you knew that.

A story about metal detectors in inner city schools would be quite
appropriate for Baltimore.

>And there goes your racist side showing through again "Bro"...
>Not a Dunbar "kid" or Dunbar "student".. but a Dunbar "boy". Ho
>sad for you.

Sensitive, are we? Actually, I meet the modern-day definition of
racist:

Racist (new age definition) n. 1) Anyone who supports color-blindness
and equality rather than racial preferences and affirmative action in
jobs, education, housing, and public accommodation. 2) Anyone who
dares reveal data and facts that reflect negatively on a "preferred"
minority group. 3) Anyone who suggests that all people should take
personal responsibility and remove themselves from the victim
plantation.
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8 RemoveThis @news.meganetnews.com>,
BroJack <brojack RemoveThis @windswept.net> wrote:
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>By Joanne Jacobs
>Nine-year-olds who use calculators can't compute on their own,
>concludes an analysis of National Assessment of Educational Progress
>(NAEP) scores by Tom Loveless of the Brown Center on Education Policy.

>CER Newswire notes: In subtraction, students scored 89.2 percent with
>calculators and 59.7 without; in multiplication, 87.9 percent with
>calculators and 42.5 without; and in division, 77.1 percent with and
>48.3 without.

>Letting students use calculators on tests of computation skills makes
>the tests worthless, Loveless concluded.

Of course! But do we want to test computational skills,
or understanding what needs to be computed?

Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
class job of using mathematics, without being able to
calculate worth a darn.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin RemoveThis @stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

On 26 Apr 2004 11:03:46 -0500, hrubin DeleteThis @odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

>In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8 DeleteThis @news.meganetnews.com>,
>BroJack <brojack DeleteThis @windswept.net> wrote:
>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>>By Joanne Jacobs
>>Nine-year-olds who use calculators can't compute on their own,
>>concludes an analysis of National Assessment of Educational Progress
>>(NAEP) scores by Tom Loveless of the Brown Center on Education Policy.
>
>>CER Newswire notes: In subtraction, students scored 89.2 percent with
>>calculators and 59.7 without; in multiplication, 87.9 percent with
>>calculators and 42.5 without; and in division, 77.1 percent with and
>>48.3 without.
>
>>Letting students use calculators on tests of computation skills makes
>>the tests worthless, Loveless concluded.
>
>Of course! But do we want to test computational skills,
>or understanding what needs to be computed?

One step at a time.

>Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
>class job of using mathematics, without being able to
>calculate worth a darn.

But when he's out of batteries and he wants to balance his checkbook
....

BroJack
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

In article <408d73ad.36901954.DeleteThis@news.easynews.com>,
Bro Jack <brojack.DeleteThis@windswept.org> wrote:
>On 26 Apr 2004 11:03:46 -0500, hrubin.DeleteThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>Rubin) wrote:

>>In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8.DeleteThis@news.meganetnews.com>,
>>BroJack <brojack.DeleteThis@windswept.net> wrote:
>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>>>By Joanne Jacobs
>>>Nine-year-olds who use calculators can't compute on their own,
>>>concludes an analysis of National Assessment of Educational Progress
>>>(NAEP) scores by Tom Loveless of the Brown Center on Education Policy.

>>>CER Newswire notes: In subtraction, students scored 89.2 percent with
>>>calculators and 59.7 without; in multiplication, 87.9 percent with
>>>calculators and 42.5 without; and in division, 77.1 percent with and
>>>48.3 without.

>>>Letting students use calculators on tests of computation skills makes
>>>the tests worthless, Loveless concluded.

>>Of course! But do we want to test computational skills,
>>or understanding what needs to be computed?

>One step at a time.

>>Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
>>class job of using mathematics, without being able to
>>calculate worth a darn.

>But when he's out of batteries and he wants to balance his checkbook

And what if the lights are out? One cannot balance the
checkbook in the dark.

No, the important thing is to know what it means, and not
memorize the algorithms and the tables to balance checkbooks.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin.DeleteThis@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

On 27 Apr 2004 15:44:33 -0500, hrubin.RemoveThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

>In article <408d73ad.36901954.RemoveThis@news.easynews.com>,
>Bro Jack <brojack.RemoveThis@windswept.org> wrote:
>>On 26 Apr 2004 11:03:46 -0500, hrubin.RemoveThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>>Rubin) wrote:
>
>>>In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8.RemoveThis@news.meganetnews.com>,
>>>BroJack <brojack.RemoveThis@windswept.net> wrote:
>>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>>>>By Joanne Jacobs
>>>>Nine-year-olds who use calculators can't compute on their own,
>>>>concludes an analysis of National Assessment of Educational Progress
>>>>(NAEP) scores by Tom Loveless of the Brown Center on Education Policy.
>
>>>>CER Newswire notes: In subtraction, students scored 89.2 percent with
>>>>calculators and 59.7 without; in multiplication, 87.9 percent with
>>>>calculators and 42.5 without; and in division, 77.1 percent with and
>>>>48.3 without.
>
>>>>Letting students use calculators on tests of computation skills makes
>>>>the tests worthless, Loveless concluded.
>
>>>Of course! But do we want to test computational skills,
>>>or understanding what needs to be computed?
>
>>One step at a time.
>
>>>Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
>>>class job of using mathematics, without being able to
>>>calculate worth a darn.
>
>>But when he's out of batteries and he wants to balance his checkbook
>
>And what if the lights are out? One cannot balance the
>checkbook in the dark.

But even if the lights are on, he won't be able to balance his
checkbook.

>No, the important thing is to know what it means, and not
>memorize the algorithms and the tables to balance checkbooks.

If he's unable to calculate, he won't be able to grasp what it means.

BroJack
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

In article <408ecb9f.39491518 DeleteThis @news.easynews.com>,
Bro Jack <brojack DeleteThis @windswept.org> wrote:
>On 27 Apr 2004 15:44:33 -0500, hrubin DeleteThis @odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>Rubin) wrote:

>>In article <408d73ad.36901954 DeleteThis @news.easynews.com>,
>>Bro Jack <brojack DeleteThis @windswept.org> wrote:
>>>On 26 Apr 2004 11:03:46 -0500, hrubin DeleteThis @odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>>>Rubin) wrote:

>>>>In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8 DeleteThis @news.meganetnews.com>,
>>>>BroJack <brojack DeleteThis @windswept.net> wrote:
>>>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>>>>>By Joanne Jacobs

...................

>>>One step at a time.

>>>>Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
>>>>class job of using mathematics, without being able to
>>>>calculate worth a darn.

>>>But when he's out of batteries and he wants to balance his checkbook

>>And what if the lights are out? One cannot balance the
>>checkbook in the dark.

>But even if the lights are on, he won't be able to balance his
>checkbook.

So what? If he cannot compute by hand the amount of
monthly payment for a mortage of 5.32% over 30 years,
does this mean that he does not understand it? The
checkbook usually does not have to be balanced right
away; it can wait. And people make mistakes. If you
think there may be sour grapes, I can carry out such
computations by hand.

>>No, the important thing is to know what it means, and not
>>memorize the algorithms and the tables to balance checkbooks.

>If he's unable to calculate, he won't be able to grasp what it means.

This is definitely NOT the case. It is not at all
difficult to teach the many concepts of the integers, and
their structure including addition and multiplication, and
not develop any proficiency in calculation. Nor will the
understanding be particularly improved by developing that
proficiency. But it seems very difficult to teach the
concepts to the teachers who have that proficiency.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin DeleteThis @stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber 

On 28 Apr 2004 13:34:57 -0500, hrubin.RemoveThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

>In article <408ecb9f.39491518.RemoveThis@news.easynews.com>,
>Bro Jack <brojack.RemoveThis@windswept.org> wrote:
>>On 27 Apr 2004 15:44:33 -0500, hrubin.RemoveThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>>Rubin) wrote:
>
>>>In article <408d73ad.36901954.RemoveThis@news.easynews.com>,
>>>Bro Jack <brojack.RemoveThis@windswept.org> wrote:
>>>>On 26 Apr 2004 11:03:46 -0500, hrubin.RemoveThis@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
>>>>Rubin) wrote:
>
>>>>>In article <ece9ee3fb0509ba4dfe39e3fc7acb0e8.RemoveThis@news.meganetnews.com>,
>>>>>BroJack <brojack.RemoveThis@windswept.net> wrote:
>>>>>>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118034,00.html
>>>>>>By Joanne Jacobs
>
> ...................
>
>>>>One step at a time.
>
>>>>>Someone can be an excellent mathematician, or do a first
>>>>>class job of using mathematics, without being able to
>>>>>calculate worth a darn.
>
>>>>But when he's out of batteries and he wants to balance his checkbook
>
>>>And what if the lights are out? One cannot balance the
>>>checkbook in the dark.
>
>>But even if the lights are on, he won't be able to balance his
>>checkbook.
>
>So what? If he cannot compute by hand the amount of
>monthly payment for a mortage of 5.32% over 30 years,
>does this mean that he does not understand it?

Yep. More than likely.

> The
>checkbook usually does not have to be balanced right
>away; it can wait. And people make mistakes. If you
>think there may be sour grapes, I can carry out such
>computations by hand.

If he cannot do basic calculations, I don't want him to be my CPA, tax
atty., bookkeeper, kid's teacher ....

>>>No, the important thing is to know what it means, and not
>>>memorize the algorithms and the tables to balance checkbooks.
>
>>If he's unable to calculate, he won't be able to grasp what it means.
>
>This is definitely NOT the case. It is not at all
>difficult to teach the many concepts of the integers, and
>their structure including addition and multiplication, and
>not develop any proficiency in calculation. Nor will the
>understanding be particularly improved by developing that
>proficiency. But it seems very difficult to teach the
>concepts to the teachers who have that proficiency.

He can be your CPA.

I'll let him collect my garbage.

BroJack
 >> Stay informed about: Dummies Use Calculators ... And Become Dumber