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Dana

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Since: Apr 09, 2004
Posts: 323



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:25 am
Post subject: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
Archived from groups: alt>education, others (more info?)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html
Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional
amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It
seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic
institutions.
Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government matter.
Government is not moral and cannot make us moral. Law should reflect moral
standards, of course, but morality comes from religion, from philosophy,
from societal standards, from families, and from responsible individuals. We
make a mistake when we look to government for moral leadership.
Marriage and divorce laws have always been crafted by states. In an ideal
world, state governments enforce marriage contracts and settle divorces, but
otherwise stay out of marriage. The federal government, granted only
limited, enumerated powers in the Constitution, has no role whatsoever.
However, many Americans understandably fear that if gay marriage is
legalized in one state, all other states will be forced to accept such
marriages. They argue that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the
Constitution essentially federalizes the issue; hence a constitutional
amendment is necessary.
But the Defense of Marriage Act, passed in 1996, explicitly authorizes
states to refuse to recognize gay marriages performed in other states.
Furthermore, the Supreme Court repeatedly has interpreted the Full Faith and
Credit clause to allow Congress to limit the effect of state laws on other
states. In fact, federal courts almost universally apply the clause only to
state court judgments, not statutes. So a constitutional amendment is not
necessary to address the issue of gay marriage, and will only drive yet
another nail into the coffin of federalism. If we turn regulation of even
domestic family relations over to the federal government, presumably
anything can be federalized.
The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal
level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach,
rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional
power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could
statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal
judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some
degree of states' rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court
is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other
branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system,
but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature.
It is great comedy to hear the secular, pro-gay left, so hostile to states'
rights in virtually every instance, suddenly discover the tyranny of
centralized government. The newly minted protectors of local rule find
themselves demanding: "Why should Washington dictate marriage standards for
Massachusetts and California? Let the people of those states decide for
themselves." This is precisely the argument conservatives and libertarians
have been making for decades! Why should Washington dictate education,
abortion, environment, and labor rules to the states? The American people
hold widely diverse views on virtually all political matters, and the
Founders wanted the various state governments to most accurately reflect
those views. This is the significance of the 10th Amendment, which the left
in particular has abused for decades.
Social problems cannot be solved by constitutional amendments or government
edicts. Nationalizing marriage laws will only grant more power over our
lives to the federal government, even if for supposedly conservative ends.
Throughout the 20th century, the relentless federalization of state law
served the interests of the cultural left, and we should not kid ourselves
that the same practice now can save freedom and morality. True conservatives
and libertarians should understand that the solution to our moral and
cultural decline does not lie in a strong centralized government.

--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.

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jetgraphics

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Since: Mar 20, 2004
Posts: 3



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Dana wrote:
> Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government
> matter.

I disagree. Marriage is a secular matter. Most people are unaware of what
marriage is all about, and cannot distinguish the legitimate reasons for
marriage, let alone objections to homosexual marriage.

As originally defined in law, marriage was not a license to cohabit,
engage in sexual relations, nor grant socialist benefits to the parties to
the marriage. It was a mechanism whereby two individuals' property rights
were merged for the benefit of the progeny - the legitimate child. In one
sense, the merging of property rights in the child is that which no man can
put asunder - not the marriage itself.

A legitimate child had a claim upon the mother's AND the father's property.
An illegitimate child could only claim the mother's property. The father
had no duty of support nor would his property pass to the illegitimate
child. A man who was married, yet sired bastards, did not dilute his
private property passed to his legitimate heirs nor injure the rights of
his lawful wife.

When one or both parties to a marriage had no property rights, a situation
existed that required special treatment. That's the original reason for the
civil marriage license. It was permission to allow a person who was
property (i.e., slave) to marry one with property rights. In Black's law
dictionary, 'marriage license' still has a footnote to miscegenation
(marriage between races). The license facilitated the transfer of property
rights that had no legitimacy under the common law.

Another telltale indicator is curtesy and dower, the right of a surviving
spouse to the property of the marriage. In the common law, the rights of
curtesy and dower were predicated upon there being children issued from the
marriage. Without children, the surviving spouse had no superior claim upon
the deceased spouse's property. The blood relatives had a superior claim.

Until progeny emit from a homosexual union, it's clear that there's no
legitimate reason for same sex marriage. Without progeny there is no union
of property rights for posterity. But since socialism offers benefits based
upon marriage status, it's clear that "other unions" will seek those same
benefits, no matter what.

Abolish socialism, and the cries for homosexual marriage would cease in
favor of a simple contract for sharing property.

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Andrew Spartz

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Since: Dec 27, 2003
Posts: 20



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Dana" <@@> wrote:

> Law should reflect moral standards, of course,

Laws should protect a victim from the criminal. No victim, no crime.
Seems simple to me. Morals are enforced by the members of a community,
not the power of law. Our country and both major parties have lost
sight of this.

ARS
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Bush

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Since: Mar 20, 2004
Posts: 61



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Dana's Spam (and silly rightwing stupidity) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:25:59 GMT, "Dana" <@@> wrote:

>Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government matter.

Absolute nonsense

Marriage is contract law.

That's why you have to get a license prior to marrying.......whether a
secular ceremony or religious rite.


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Arne Langsetmo

External


Since: Mar 21, 2004
Posts: 79



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:22 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Dana, I doubt you're aware that Ron Paul (one of the few
remaining Republicans with a couple neurones to spare)
is saying that Dubya is full-o-shite in supporting the
anti-gay-marriage amendment. . . .

Paul's subsidiary idea that federal jurisdiction could
be limited by statute is nonsense, of course (not to mention
that it ignores the fact that the much-decried Massachusetts
decision was based on state law, and argued in state court).

Paul should pay attention to his guiding philosophy here,
and state forthright that the state (not just the federal
gummint, but any state as well) has _no_ business deciding
who gets to marry who. . . .

Cheers,

-- Arne Langsetmo

"Buttmaster" Dana, whose fervent wish is that someone will use
him for a human toilet, wrote:

> http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html
> Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
> by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
>
> The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional
> amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It
> seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic
> institutions.
> Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government matter.
> Government is not moral and cannot make us moral. Law should reflect moral
> standards, of course, but morality comes from religion, from philosophy,
> from societal standards, from families, and from responsible individuals. We
> make a mistake when we look to government for moral leadership.
> Marriage and divorce laws have always been crafted by states. In an ideal
> world, state governments enforce marriage contracts and settle divorces, but
> otherwise stay out of marriage. The federal government, granted only
> limited, enumerated powers in the Constitution, has no role whatsoever.
> However, many Americans understandably fear that if gay marriage is
> legalized in one state, all other states will be forced to accept such
> marriages. They argue that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the
> Constitution essentially federalizes the issue; hence a constitutional
> amendment is necessary.
> But the Defense of Marriage Act, passed in 1996, explicitly authorizes
> states to refuse to recognize gay marriages performed in other states.
> Furthermore, the Supreme Court repeatedly has interpreted the Full Faith and
> Credit clause to allow Congress to limit the effect of state laws on other
> states. In fact, federal courts almost universally apply the clause only to
> state court judgments, not statutes. So a constitutional amendment is not
> necessary to address the issue of gay marriage, and will only drive yet
> another nail into the coffin of federalism. If we turn regulation of even
> domestic family relations over to the federal government, presumably
> anything can be federalized.
> The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal
> level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach,
> rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional
> power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could
> statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal
> judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some
> degree of states' rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court
> is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other
> branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system,
> but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature.
> It is great comedy to hear the secular, pro-gay left, so hostile to states'
> rights in virtually every instance, suddenly discover the tyranny of
> centralized government. The newly minted protectors of local rule find
> themselves demanding: "Why should Washington dictate marriage standards for
> Massachusetts and California? Let the people of those states decide for
> themselves." This is precisely the argument conservatives and libertarians
> have been making for decades! Why should Washington dictate education,
> abortion, environment, and labor rules to the states? The American people
> hold widely diverse views on virtually all political matters, and the
> Founders wanted the various state governments to most accurately reflect
> those views. This is the significance of the 10th Amendment, which the left
> in particular has abused for decades.
> Social problems cannot be solved by constitutional amendments or government
> edicts. Nationalizing marriage laws will only grant more power over our
> lives to the federal government, even if for supposedly conservative ends.
> Throughout the 20th century, the relentless federalization of state law
> served the interests of the cultural left, and we should not kid ourselves
> that the same practice now can save freedom and morality. True conservatives
> and libertarians should understand that the solution to our moral and
> cultural decline does not lie in a strong centralized government.
>
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Roger

External


Since: Dec 25, 2003
Posts: 1038



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:25 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Dana" <@@> wrote in message
news:dad47c3993e4b3e0470e365929be5274@news.meganetnews.com...
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html
> Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
> by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Selected bills sponsored by Ron Paul in the 108th Congress:

H.CON.RES.46 : Expressing the sense of Congress that all United States Armed
Forces should be withdrawn from South Korea and the United States should end
its defense guarantee of South Korea.

H.CON.RES.255 : Expressing the sense of the Congress that the United States
military should not become involved in the Liberian civil war, either alone
or as part of a United Nations peacekeeping force.

H.J.RES.15 : Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States
relative to abolishing personal income, estate, and gift taxes and
prohibiting the United States Government from engaging in business in
competition with its citizens.

H.J.RES.42 : Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States
to deny United States citizenship to individuals born in the United States
to parents who are neither United States citizens nor persons who owe
permanent allegiance to the United States.

H.R.155 : To support the domestic shrimping industry by eliminating taxpayer
subsidies for certain competitors, and for other purposes.

H.R.487 : To repeal the Military Selective Service Act.

H.R.488 : To limit the issuance of student and diversity immigrant visas to
aliens who are nationals of Saudi Arabia, countries that support terrorism,
or countries not cooperating fully with United States antiterrorism efforts.

H.R.938 : To prohibit Federal payments to any individual, business,
institution, or organization that engages in human cloning.

H.R.1146 : To end membership of the United States in the United Nations.

H.R.1404 : To direct the Secretary of Defense to present a ribbon of
appropriate design to all persons who, while a member of the Armed Forces
serving on active duty, were exposed to ionizing radiation as a result of
participation in a test of atomic weapons.

H.R.1546 : To provide that the inferior courts of the United States do not
have jurisdiction to hear abortion-related cases.

H.R.1547 : To restore first amendment protections of religion and religious
speech.

H.R.2139 : To repeal the National Voter Registration Act of 1993.

H.R.3893 : To limit the jurisdiction of the Federal courts, and for other
purposes.


>
> The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional
> amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It
> seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic
> institutions.
> Marriage is first and foremost a religious matter, not a government
matter.
> Government is not moral and cannot make us moral. Law should reflect moral
> standards, of course, but morality comes from religion, from philosophy,
> from societal standards, from families, and from responsible individuals.
We
> make a mistake when we look to government for moral leadership.
> Marriage and divorce laws have always been crafted by states. In an ideal
> world, state governments enforce marriage contracts and settle divorces,
but
> otherwise stay out of marriage. The federal government, granted only
> limited, enumerated powers in the Constitution, has no role whatsoever.
> However, many Americans understandably fear that if gay marriage is
> legalized in one state, all other states will be forced to accept such
> marriages. They argue that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the
> Constitution essentially federalizes the issue; hence a constitutional
> amendment is necessary.
> But the Defense of Marriage Act, passed in 1996, explicitly authorizes
> states to refuse to recognize gay marriages performed in other states.
> Furthermore, the Supreme Court repeatedly has interpreted the Full Faith
and
> Credit clause to allow Congress to limit the effect of state laws on other
> states. In fact, federal courts almost universally apply the clause only
to
> state court judgments, not statutes. So a constitutional amendment is not
> necessary to address the issue of gay marriage, and will only drive yet
> another nail into the coffin of federalism. If we turn regulation of even
> domestic family relations over to the federal government, presumably
> anything can be federalized.
> The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal
> level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach,
> rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional
> power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could
> statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal
> judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some
> degree of states' rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court
> is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the
other
> branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal
system,
> but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature.
> It is great comedy to hear the secular, pro-gay left, so hostile to
states'
> rights in virtually every instance, suddenly discover the tyranny of
> centralized government. The newly minted protectors of local rule find
> themselves demanding: "Why should Washington dictate marriage standards
for
> Massachusetts and California? Let the people of those states decide for
> themselves." This is precisely the argument conservatives and libertarians
> have been making for decades! Why should Washington dictate education,
> abortion, environment, and labor rules to the states? The American people
> hold widely diverse views on virtually all political matters, and the
> Founders wanted the various state governments to most accurately reflect
> those views. This is the significance of the 10th Amendment, which the
left
> in particular has abused for decades.
> Social problems cannot be solved by constitutional amendments or
government
> edicts. Nationalizing marriage laws will only grant more power over our
> lives to the federal government, even if for supposedly conservative ends.
> Throughout the 20th century, the relentless federalization of state law
> served the interests of the cultural left, and we should not kid ourselves
> that the same practice now can save freedom and morality. True
conservatives
> and libertarians should understand that the solution to our moral and
> cultural decline does not lie in a strong centralized government.
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Chris the Liberal

External


Since: Mar 21, 2004
Posts: 60



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Dana" <@@> wrote in message news:<dad47c3993e4b3e0470e365929be5274.DeleteThis@news.meganetnews.com>...
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html
> Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
> by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
>
> The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional
> amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It
> seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic
> institutions.

Why is it that conservatives get their panties dirtied about
homosexuality and IGNORE other sins of the Bible???

True, Leviticus 20:13 condems the act of a "man also lieth
with mankind as he lieth with a woman...." adding that they
shall be put to death.

But Leviticus 20:10 says that "A man that committed adultery
with another man's wife .... shall surely be put to death".

So why aren't conservatives burying adulterers like Bob Livingston,
Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrich ... up to their neck in sand and then
stoning them until they are dead????

The reason is that conservatives LIKE the parts of the Holy
Bible that THEY believe, but IGNORE the parts that condemn
people like them........

It's a little like the Southerners who for generations
quoted the Holy Bible in support of slavery......
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Roger

External


Since: Dec 25, 2003
Posts: 1038



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Chris the Liberal" <Cognitus44 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5d75753.0403210921.57fcb4d8@posting.google.com...
> "Dana" <@@> wrote in message
news:<dad47c3993e4b3e0470e365929be5274 DeleteThis @news.meganetnews.com>...
> > http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html
> > Eliminate Federal Court Jurisdiction
> > by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
> >
> > The President's recent announcement that he supports a constitutional
> > amendment defining marriage has intensified the gay marriage debate. It
> > seems sad that we need government to define and regulate our most basic
> > institutions.
>
> Why is it that conservatives get their panties dirtied about
> homosexuality and IGNORE other sins of the Bible???
>
> True, Leviticus 20:13 condems the act of a "man also lieth
> with mankind as he lieth with a woman...." adding that they
> shall be put to death.
>
> But Leviticus 20:10 says that "A man that committed adultery
> with another man's wife .... shall surely be put to death".
>
> So why aren't conservatives burying adulterers like Bob Livingston,
> Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrich ... up to their neck in sand and then
> stoning them until they are dead????
>
> The reason is that conservatives LIKE the parts of the Holy
> Bible that THEY believe, but IGNORE the parts that condemn
> people like them........
>
> It's a little like the Southerners who for generations
> quoted the Holy Bible in support of slavery......

There's that whole list in that "letter to Dr. Laura" that was also done on
The West Wing.

Hilarious!

I have yet to hear a response to that from any Christians.
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