Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:09, Ron Baker, wrote:

> With some minor regulations and controls
> I see no reason that religious schools
> should not be allowed to be part of the
> public education system.


I, personally, recommend _The American Heritage Dictionary_.


Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------
For every complex problem there is an answer
that is clear, simple, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:

>
><buckeye0ELO.TakeThisOut@nospam.net> wrote in message
>:|news:a550t098nnpn5jn1ncudhtut1pm6l8i5i9@4ax.com...
>> CHURCH & STATE DECEMBER 2004 page 3 (243)
>> AU BULLETIN
>> http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_2004_12
>> [EXCERPTS]
>>
>> Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers
>>
>> A state appeals court has struck down Florida's voucher program, holding
>> that it clearly violates a provision of the Florida Constitution by
>> funneling tax money to religious schools.
>>
>> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane, ruled
>> Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP)
>> fails to pass constitutional muster.
>
>:|Interesting.
>
>I wonder what the consensus is on this here in a.a.
>
>:|Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
>:|to block vouchers is bogus. (I have some guesses about
>:|the real reasons behind the opposition.) With some minor
>:|regulations and controls I see no reason that religious schools
>:|should not be allowed to be part of the public education
>:|system.


How well do you know American History, history or education in this
country, the function and purpose of religious schools, etc?
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

> <faceous mode on>
> And afterall, no organization has created more atheists than
> the Catholic school system.
> </faceous mode off>



POINT OF ORDER
<faceous mode on>
</faceous mode off>

Isn't the proper construct, </faceous mode> OR <faceous mode off>?

It seems to me that </faceous mode off> is a double negative that would
result faceous mode remaining on.
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane,
> ruled Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship
> Program (OSP) fails to pass constitutional muster.

> Florida legislators passed the voucher program in 1999, with strong
> backing from Gov. Bush. It provides vouchers for parents in public
> schools deemed "failing."
> Religious schools taking part in the program may require students to
> attend religious instruction classes but cannot compel them to pray or
> take part in other forms of religious worship.


The point is, is that the left and atheists on the left do not want to
educate our children. They would prefer to brainwash our children on the
hateful ideology of the left and on the beliefs of secular humanists.
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

>
> <buckeye0ELO DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:a550t098nnpn5jn1ncudhtut1pm6l8i5i9@4ax.com...
>> CHURCH & STATE DECEMBER 2004 page 3 (243)
>> AU BULLETIN
>> http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_2004_12
>> [EXCERPTS]
>>
>> Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers
>>
>> A state appeals court has struck down Florida's voucher program,
>> holding that it clearly violates a provision of the Florida
>> Constitution by funneling tax money to religious schools.
>>
>> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane,
>> ruled Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship
>> Program (OSP) fails to pass constitutional muster.
>
> Interesting.
>
> I wonder what the consensus is on this here in a.a.
>
> Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
> to block vouchers is bogus. (I have some guesses about
> the real reasons behind the opposition.) With some minor
> regulations and controls I see no reason that religious schools
> should not be allowed to be part of the public education
> system.

This paragraph taking from the article that jailbird posted clearly shows
that the bill does not violate the 1st Amendment.

Religious schools taking part in the program may require students to
attend
religious instruction classes but cannot compel them to pray or take part
in other forms of religious worship.

>
> <faceous mode on>
> And afterall, no organization has created more atheists than
> the Catholic school system.
> </faceous mode off>
>
> --
> rb, aa#2187
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

buckeye0ELO.RemoveThis@nospam.net wrote:

> "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
>
>>
>><buckeye0ELO.RemoveThis@nospam.net> wrote in message
>>:|news:a550t098nnpn5jn1ncudhtut1pm6l8i5i9@4ax.com...
>>> CHURCH & STATE DECEMBER 2004 page 3 (243)
>>> AU BULLETIN
>>> http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_2004_12
>>> [EXCERPTS]
>>>
>>> Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers
>>>
>>> A state appeals court has struck down Florida's voucher program,
>>> holding that it clearly violates a provision of the Florida
>>> Constitution by funneling tax money to religious schools.
>>>
>>> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane,
>>> ruled Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship
>>> Program (OSP) fails to pass constitutional muster.
>>
>>:|Interesting.
>>
>>I wonder what the consensus is on this here in a.a.
>>
>>:|Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
>>:|to block vouchers is bogus. (I have some guesses about
>>:|the real reasons behind the opposition.) With some minor
>>:|regulations and controls I see no reason that religious schools
>>:|should not be allowed to be part of the public education
>>:|system.
>
>
> How well do you know American History, history or education in this
> country, the function and purpose of religious schools, etc?

You do realize the very first schools in the colonies were set up as
religious schools.
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:09:58 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<oscar DeleteThis @bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:


>Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
>to block vouchers is bogus.

I would support a tax break equal to the amount withdrawn for public
education for any family able to prove recognised "alternate"
schooling for their children.

THEN the families can give money to the "church schools" if they so
desire.

Seperation is still maintained that way.


Tak
a#344


"another atheist"
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

"Tak" <notanemail.RemoveThis@youspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:uvj0t0l73eiarosmreios7u5aej8109dmo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:09:58 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
> <oscar.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
>
>
> >Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
> >to block vouchers is bogus.
>
> I would support a tax break equal to the amount withdrawn for public
> education for any family able to prove recognised "alternate"
> schooling for their children.
>
> THEN the families can give money to the "church schools" if they so
> desire.
>
> Seperation is still maintained that way.
>

That has been tried, and it doesn't work.

Most education is funded from property taxes, not income taxes. Yes, some
income tax dollars find their way to the public school system, but most
school dollars come from property taxes. If we give tax breaks to people
that pull their kids from public schools, two things happen. We shift the
tax break from the property tax rolls and onto the income taxes as an
unfunded liability, and many people with children in the public schools pay
less in school taxes collected in property tax than it costs to educate a
kid. For example, I think my property taxers that go to schools is only a
few hundred dollars per year, the voucher is on the order of $4500 per kid -
I don't know the exact amount of a voucher, I just wanted to illustrate that
the voucher is larger than the individual's tax base upon which it is drawn,
and is larger than the tax break that could be passed through the income tax
system. The reason that property taxes can fund schools is because there are
so many parcels that are taxed, but have no children residing on them that
attend schools. For example, my street once had 37 kids living in 19 homes,
for an average of 2 kids per home. Some of the homes had no kids living in
them, others had 4. Today, there are still 19 homes, but only about 8 kids
in school. The population of school age kids has been cut in half on my
street. Since everybody pays the same taxes, then there are people now
paying school tax but have no kids in school.

I think that if people are going to be encouraged to pull kids from public
schools in an effort to reduce enrollment and thereby improve education for
those that remain, then we ought not become annoyed at where those people
take their kids. If the cost to educate a kid is 7000, but we only give a
parent a voucher for 4500, then we are keeping 2500 to spread among the
fewer remaining kids in the public school. The parent that receives the
voucher has to kick in the additional monies between the voucher amount and
the actual cost of the education. Clearly, the voucher would barely cover
the cost of the basic education, and the parents would be covering any
additional education they felt was important, including but not limited to
religious education. And, schools seldom make money, the vast majority of
religious schools draw money from the collection plate to cover the costs of
running the school, they do not pull money from the school operations and
fill the collection plate. So, vouchers fund education, not religion.

There are lots of reasons to oppose vouchers, church-state separation isn't
one of them. Of course, the liberal justice system will not agree with me,
but that is to be expected. I also think that vouchers should be required to
pass in the voting booth, not be sent through as a legislative exercise.
Yes, I vote for my legislators, and they enact new laws. But sometimes a law
needs the direct support of the voters themselves. How do we decide which
laws need direct support? I do not have an answer to that question.
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

Tak wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:09:58 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
> <oscar DeleteThis @bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
>
>
>>Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
>>to block vouchers is bogus.
>
> I would support a tax break equal to the amount withdrawn for public
> education for any family able to prove recognised "alternate"
> schooling for their children.
>
> THEN the families can give money to the "church schools" if they so
> desire.
>

Being that most families that send their children to school, do not pay
any taxes for that.
Most school funding comes from home and business owners.

> Seperation is still maintained that way.
>
>
> Tak
> a#344
>
>
> "another atheist"
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:qtWzd.37686$Ew6.32883@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> <buckeye0ELO.DeleteThis@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:a550t098nnpn5jn1ncudhtut1pm6l8i5i9@4ax.com...
>> CHURCH & STATE DECEMBER 2004 page 3 (243)
>> AU BULLETIN
>> http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_2004_12
>> [EXCERPTS]
>>
>> Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers
>>
>> A state appeals court has struck down Florida's voucher program, holding
>> that it clearly violates a provision of the Florida Constitution by
>> funneling tax money to religious schools.
>>
>> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane, ruled
>> Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship Program
>> (OSP)
>> fails to pass constitutional muster.
>
> Interesting.
>
> I wonder what the consensus is on this here in a.a.
>
> Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
> to block vouchers is bogus. (I have some guesses about
> the real reasons behind the opposition.) With some minor
> regulations and controls I see no reason that religious schools
> should not be allowed to be part of the public education
> system.


IMHO, so long as a religious school does not advance its views on religion
while using taxpayer $$$, I see no reason why not. If all they're gonna do
is teach Reading, Writing, Math, History, Social Studies, etc and never
mention religion (other than its generic role in history), I have no problem
with this.
Thing is, though, that some church schools make a profit on their
religious school operations -- they get an income from space that would have
otherwise gone unused during the week. And they may skimp on teacher
salaries / supplies or admit only students that are easy to teach so that
they spend less per student than what they get from government funding. Not
cool.
So, ya, so long as they operate under the same rules as public schools do,
I don't see any problem with this . . .

-Tock
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:32:09 -0600, Tock wrote
(in message <dj_zd.6801$iC4.6505@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>):

>
> "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
> news:qtWzd.37686$Ew6.32883@twister.socal.rr.com...
>>
>> <buckeye0ELO.TakeThisOut@nospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:a550t098nnpn5jn1ncudhtut1pm6l8i5i9@4ax.com...
>>> CHURCH & STATE DECEMBER 2004 page 3 (243)
>>> AU BULLETIN
>>> http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cs_2004_12
>>> [EXCERPTS]
>>>
>>> Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers
>>>
>>> A state appeals court has struck down Florida's voucher program, holding
>>> that it clearly violates a provision of the Florida Constitution by
>>> funneling tax money to religious schools.
>>>
>>> The 1st District Court of Appeal, sitting as a full panel en bane, ruled
>>> Nov. 12 that Gov. Jeb Bush's Florida Opportunity Scholarship Program
>>> (OSP)
>>> fails to pass constitutional muster.
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> I wonder what the consensus is on this here in a.a.
>>
>> Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
>> to block vouchers is bogus. (I have some guesses about
>> the real reasons behind the opposition.) With some minor
>> regulations and controls I see no reason that religious schools
>> should not be allowed to be part of the public education
>> system.
>
>
> IMHO, so long as a religious school does not advance its views on religion
> while using taxpayer $$$, I see no reason why not. If all they're gonna do
> is teach Reading, Writing, Math, History, Social Studies, etc and never
> mention religion (other than its generic role in history), I have no problem
> with this.
> Thing is, though, that some church schools make a profit on their
> religious school operations -- they get an income from space that would have
> otherwise gone unused during the week. And they may skimp on teacher
> salaries / supplies or admit only students that are easy to teach so that
> they spend less per student than what they get from government funding. Not
> cool.
> So, ya, so long as they operate under the same rules as public schools do,
> I don't see any problem with this . . .
>
> -Tock
>

You mean open admissions?


Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is evitable but suffering is optional.
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

"Tak" <notanemail RemoveThis @youspambastards.com> wrote in message
news:uvj0t0l73eiarosmreios7u5aej8109dmo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:09:58 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
> <oscar RemoveThis @bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
>
>
> >Even though I am an atheist I think the separation argument
> >to block vouchers is bogus.
>
> I would support a tax break equal to the amount withdrawn for public
> education for any family able to prove recognised "alternate"
> schooling for their children.

I would make the voucher only, say, 70% for a couple reasons.
The private school can be more selective than the public schools.
Private school have it easier. They can reject basket cases.
I think the private schools can naturally do better with less money.
We need the public schools and they will naturally be more
bureaucratic and less efficient.
And the lower rate would give the voucher system more acceptance.
(The public schools would still be getting tax money for students
they are not burdened with educating.)

>
> THEN the families can give money to the "church schools" if they so
> desire.
>
> Seperation is still maintained that way.

Yup. That disarms the separation issue.
The separation issue is a red herring.

>
>
> Tak
> a#344
>
>
> "another atheist"

--
rb #2187
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers 

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:59:34 -0600, Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote
(in message <WI_zd.37961$Ew6.19892@twister.socal.rr.com>):

>> THEN the families can give money to the "church schools" if they so
>> desire.
>>
>> Seperation is still maintained that way.
>
> Yup. That disarms the separation issue.
> The separation issue is a red herring.


That's very nice for sweet urban youth;
what "plan" do you advocate for the
hundreds of thousands (millions?) of
students who live 45 minutes to an
hour away from their schools?


Am I correct that the "voucher position" is "Screw rural people"?


In this (kinda urban) area, 95% of the school children ride on big yeller
buses. How are you going to get your boys and girls to and from your "voucher
school"? Priced Blue Birds lately?

Textbooks are an ongoing expense for all students' education; where are your
voucher children going to get their textbooks?

And there are many other expenses connected with your "voucher school".

How much insurance is your "voucher school" going to buy?

To whom are the accounting & financial books going to be open? Are your
"voucher schools" going to be for profit? Allegedly "non-profit"?

Accreditation? Computers? Provisions for medical problems? Music? Sports?
Drama? Breakfast & lunch programs? What is a school cafeteria within the
precepts of city, county & state sanitary and nutritional regulations? Is
your cafeteria going to have a nutritionist?

What are you planning to do about children who cut classes?

What type of biology, chemistry and physics laboratories classrooms and lab
equipment will you have? How 'bout "home ec" labs? Drivers education (priced
auto insurance for a teenaged boy lately with and without it)?

How many foreign languages are you going to have?

Are seniors (or gifted juniors) going to be able to take DE and pre-calc and
calc?

What's the ration of students to urinals and commodes as well as lavatories.
What entity is going to inspect them regularly?

How large a library is your "voucher school" going to have? Who is going to
choose what books are going to be in it? Is accreditation partially dependent
on this library? Are you to have full-time librarian/librarians?

What type of building are you going to have? What construction materials?
Sprinkler system for fires? Fire alarms in all rooms? Fire insurance?

How much administration is going to be necessary and/or desired?

PA system?

What type of discipline is going to be used.


These aren't minor factors to be glossed over; these are real concerns.

Not "that'll work itself out" nor "we'll get more 'stuff' every year" nor
"That's technical items and I'm a 'concepts' man".

Let's deal with some specifics here in "alt.education". And I would imagine
that experienced education folks have some really important questions.


Or are you a dreamy-eyed visionary caught up in the romance of "Utopia"
("utopia" means "no such place").

This should be wonderful for those who want to deal in "facts" rather than
"opinions".

Got facts?


Gray Shockley
--------------------
Vicksburg, MS
 >> Stay informed about: Florida Appeals Court Strikes Down School Vouchers