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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:27 am
Post subject: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism Archived from groups: soc>college>admissions (more info?)
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What Academia is Hiding
Ogletree's admission of plagiarism speaks to a widespread morally
questionable practice
By THE CRIMSON STAFF
For every Harvard student, the charge of plagiarism could prove fatal to one
's undergraduate career. From the outset, students are forewarned of the
College's daunting zero-tolerance discipline policy; that is, whether
inadvertent or otherwise, according to the student handbook, plagiarism of
any sort "will ordinarily result in disciplinary action, including but not
limited to requirement to withdraw from the College." But, it seems that
this stringent policy-aimed to ensure sincere and scrupulous
scholarship-does not extend to members of Harvard's Faculty. Rather, after
the recent reprimand of Climenko Professor of Law Charles J. Ogletree for
virtual verbatim plagiarism in his book All Deliberate Speed, it is apparent
that Harvard's steadfast standards of scholarship do not apply across the
board.
Last week, Ogletree admitted that six paragraphs of his book-nearly two
pages of text-had been lifted from the work of Yale Law School professor
Jack M. Balkin, after the latter author was anonymously informed that
Ogletree's work should be investigated. However, while admitting to some
fault for his carelessness, Ogletree maintains that the text's inclusion was
an oversight due, in part, to strict deadlines and a strong reliance on
research assistants. Neither defense is excusable.
According to a statement released by Ogletree, the professor insists that he
"made a serious mistake during the editorial process of completing this
book, and delegated too much responsibility to others during the final
editing process." But while it is not unlikely that such sloppiness was a
result of editing errors rather than an egregious attempt to pass off Balkin
's work as his own, Ogletree's transgression is a serious one-one that would
likely result in expulsion for a Harvard undergraduate. That Ogletree will
not face anything remotely this severe reveals the glaring disparity in
Harvard's plagiarism policies-and the different scholarly standards it holds
for its students and Faculty.
But Ogletree's "serious scholarly transgression"-so deemed by Harvard Law
School Dean Elena Kagan-not only leaves a blemish on the renowned professor'
s resume and reveals a ludicrous double standard, it is also indicative of
an alarming trend currently threatening the legitimacy of the work of those
in academia; that is, the extensive use of research assistants and students
to do much of a project's grunt work. Of course, it's entirely legitimate to
acquire help from assistants, but that help must be limited to ensure that a
piece of scholarship is indeed a scholar's own work. When the author himself
does not recognize that a text of two pages is not his own, something is
amiss.
And while Ogletree also suggests that his ever-looming deadlines contributed
to his oversight, his work's integrity should have come first. Perhaps he
should have spent more time reviewing his assistants' work before putting
his name on it and having it published.
The bottom line remains that had a Harvard student committed such a grievous
error, intentionally or not, the College would likely turn a deaf ear to any
excuses-particularly any that involve an over-reliance on paid assistants to
do their research and writing for them. If Harvard is not willing to hold
its Faculty to the same high scholarly standards as it does its students,
then perhaps it should rethink its undergraduate plagiarism policy and do
away with the charade of irreproachable academic integrity.
Copyright © 2004, The Harvard Crimson Inc >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Jul 24, 2003 Posts: 21
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:09 am
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I've always wondered how college students, who "copy internet documents verbatim"
at somewhere between a 25-50% rate depending on whose survey you read, suddenly
turn into "model researchers" when they become interns for big professors,
elected officials, or others. The answer is- they dont stop plagarism, as you
can see from the Harvard example. The late historian Ambrose had similar
problems.
On the other hand, people who have studied scientific journals, now a large
fraction of them are online and suitable for plagarism-detection software,
do not see big amounts of it. The couple of studies done so far see it
in the 1-2% range, if exclude paragraphs replicatred within same author groups
(a long known issue). I guess peer review catches some of this. >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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(rick++) wrote in message ...
> I've always wondered how college students, who "copy internet documents verbatim"
> at somewhere between a 25-50% rate depending on whose survey you read, suddenly
> turn into "model researchers" when they become interns for big professors,
> elected officials, or others. The answer is- they dont stop plagarism, as you
> can see from the Harvard example. The late historian Ambrose had similar
> problems.
>
> On the other hand, people who have studied scientific journals, now a large
> fraction of them are online and suitable for plagarism-detection software,
> do not see big amounts of it. The couple of studies done so far see it
> in the 1-2% range, if exclude paragraphs replicatred within same author groups
> (a long known issue). I guess peer review catches some of this.
This is similar to the case with Nobel Prize winner David Baltimore.
Except in that case there was intentional fraud by the student (or
post-doc), and even upon examination by experts Baltimore and the
student/post-doc/(or whatever) insisted upon their accuracy.
This case is less egregious. Plagiarism is always bad, but intent
must be considerd. When students plagiarize they are usually
intentionally cheating. In this case, and in the case of Baltimore,
they were sloppy, but the intent was not to cheat.
Unfortunately the writer of the original piece doesn't seem to grasp
why Baltimore and this professor should likely remain professors, and
a student should be expelled.
KSG >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Sep 15, 2003 Posts: 16
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"The bottom line remains that had a Harvard student committed such a grievous
error, intentionally or not, the College would likely turn a deaf ear to any
excuses-particularly any that involve an over-reliance on paid assistants to
do their research and writing for them. If Harvard is not willing to hold
its Faculty to the same high scholarly standards as it does its students,
then perhaps it should rethink its undergraduate plagiarism policy and do
away with the charade of irreproachable academic integrity." >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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cthcarter.DeleteThis@aol.com (thc) wrote in message ...
> "The bottom line remains that had a Harvard student committed such a grievous
> error, intentionally or not, the College would likely turn a deaf ear to any
> excuses-particularly any that involve an over-reliance on paid assistants to
> do their research and writing for them. If Harvard is not willing to hold
> its Faculty to the same high scholarly standards as it does its students,
> then perhaps it should rethink its undergraduate plagiarism policy and do
> away with the charade of irreproachable academic integrity."
Thc, you seem less capable than the original author of the Harvard
piece, as my whole post was dedicated to this particular quoted
paragraph. Here's an exercise for the reader: Show how my original
post directly addresses the above quoted paragraph. For advanced
readers, show how the above quoted paragraph does not address anything
from my original post.
I'm glad this is a college admissions board, and not one for students
who had graduated from college -- I'd be really worried then. Then
again, I've interviewed enough college students to know that the
situation only gets slightly better.
Thanks,
KSG >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"KSG" wrote
> (rick++) wrote
> > I've always wondered how college students, who "copy internet documents
verbatim"
> > at somewhere between a 25-50% rate depending on whose survey you read,
suddenly
> > turn into "model researchers" when they become interns for big
professors,
> > elected officials, or others. The answer is- they dont stop plagarism,
as you
> > can see from the Harvard example. The late historian Ambrose had
similar
> > problems.
> >
> > On the other hand, people who have studied scientific journals, now a
large
> > fraction of them are online and suitable for plagarism-detection
software,
> > do not see big amounts of it. The couple of studies done so far see it
> > in the 1-2% range, if exclude paragraphs replicatred within same author
groups
> > (a long known issue). I guess peer review catches some of this.
>
> This is similar to the case with Nobel Prize winner David Baltimore.
> Except in that case there was intentional fraud by the student (or
> post-doc), and even upon examination by experts Baltimore and the
> student/post-doc/(or whatever) insisted upon their accuracy.
In the Doris Kearns Goodwin case Lawrence Tribe wrote:
"[T]here can be no doubt that, unlike the student who turns in someone
else's work as her own and hopes the instructor won't notice the
cribbing-the student for whom the Harvard disciplinary rules to which the
Crimson editorial referred were principally written-Goodwin, who cited the
very sources she has been accused of not crediting, had not the slightest
intention to deceive, to claim originality for thoughts that were
unoriginal, or to appropriate another's deathless prose in hopes that she
might be credited with a literary gift that belongs in truth to someone
else."
Harvard History Teaching Fellow Lisa Laskin wrote:
"H]ow can I teach students about the importance of attribution and original
scholarship, when the institution behind us all tolerates plagiarism at the
highest level? Allowing Goodwin to remain as Overseer of an academic
institution is tantamount to condoning such behavior. Worse, it promotes a
double standard, suggesting that indiscretions diminish in importance as
one's fame and popularity grow."
Apparently, Ogletree realized that he need not worry given the environment
at Harvard condoning plagiarism by the rich and famous.
In an earlier era, we find:
"A Harvard professor and past president of a national professional society
had to resign when it was revealed that review articles which he had
authored many years previously included many unacknowledged quotes and
paraphrases from sources. The demand for absolute integrity in academic work
applies to everyone." (Brooklyn College Statement on Academic Integrity,
adopted 1991.)
> This case is less egregious. Plagiarism is always bad, but intent
> must be considerd. When students plagiarize they are usually
> intentionally cheating. In this case, and in the case of Baltimore,
> they were sloppy, but the intent was not to cheat.
>
> Unfortunately the writer of the original piece doesn't seem to grasp
> why Baltimore and this professor should likely remain professors, and
> a student should be expelled.
When a student cheats, he is debasing only him/herself.
When a professor cheats, s/he debases the entire institution.
Abe
Abe >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:54 am
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"KSG" wrote
> cthcarter.DeleteThis@aol.com (thc) wrote in message
> > "The bottom line remains that had a Harvard student committed such a
grievous
> > error, intentionally or not, the College would likely turn a deaf ear to
any
> > excuses-particularly any that involve an over-reliance on paid
assistants to
> > do their research and writing for them. If Harvard is not willing to
hold
> > its Faculty to the same high scholarly standards as it does its
students,
> > then perhaps it should rethink its undergraduate plagiarism policy and
do
> > away with the charade of irreproachable academic integrity."
>
>
> Thc, you seem less capable than the original author of the Harvard
> piece, as my whole post was dedicated to this particular quoted
> paragraph. Here's an exercise for the reader: Show how my original
> post directly addresses the above quoted paragraph. For advanced
> readers, show how the above quoted paragraph does not address anything
> from my original post.
Wow! You can send this to Dan Rather and CBS News. He needs this type of
obfuscatory response in defense of the falsified documents.
Abe >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" wrote in message ...
> "KSG" wrote
> > cthcarter.TakeThisOut@aol.com (thc) wrote in message
> > > "The bottom line remains that had a Harvard student committed such a
> grievous
> > > error, intentionally or not, the College would likely turn a deaf ear to
> any
> > > excuses-particularly any that involve an over-reliance on paid
> assistants to
> > > do their research and writing for them. If Harvard is not willing to
> hold
> > > its Faculty to the same high scholarly standards as it does its
> students,
> > > then perhaps it should rethink its undergraduate plagiarism policy and
> do
> > > away with the charade of irreproachable academic integrity."
> >
> >
> > Thc, you seem less capable than the original author of the Harvard
> > piece, as my whole post was dedicated to this particular quoted
> > paragraph. Here's an exercise for the reader: Show how my original
> > post directly addresses the above quoted paragraph. For advanced
> > readers, show how the above quoted paragraph does not address anything
> > from my original post.
>
> Wow! You can send this to Dan Rather and CBS News. He needs this type of
> obfuscatory response in defense of the falsified documents.
Unfortunately George Bush had first dibs on this. When he's done with
it, I'll get it Dan Rather.
Thanks,
KSG >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" wrote in message ...
> "KSG" wrote
> > (rick++) wrote
> > > I've always wondered how college students, who "copy internet documents
> verbatim"
> > > at somewhere between a 25-50% rate depending on whose survey you read,
> suddenly
> > > turn into "model researchers" when they become interns for big
> professors,
> > > elected officials, or others. The answer is- they dont stop plagarism,
> as you
> > > can see from the Harvard example. The late historian Ambrose had
> similar
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, people who have studied scientific journals, now a
> large
> > > fraction of them are online and suitable for plagarism-detection
> software,
> > > do not see big amounts of it. The couple of studies done so far see it
> > > in the 1-2% range, if exclude paragraphs replicatred within same author
> groups
> > > (a long known issue). I guess peer review catches some of this.
> >
> > This is similar to the case with Nobel Prize winner David Baltimore.
> > Except in that case there was intentional fraud by the student (or
> > post-doc), and even upon examination by experts Baltimore and the
> > student/post-doc/(or whatever) insisted upon their accuracy.
>
> In the Doris Kearns Goodwin case Lawrence Tribe wrote:
>
> "[T]here can be no doubt that, unlike the student who turns in someone
> else's work as her own and hopes the instructor won't notice the
> cribbing-the student for whom the Harvard disciplinary rules to which the
> Crimson editorial referred were principally written-Goodwin, who cited the
> very sources she has been accused of not crediting, had not the slightest
> intention to deceive, to claim originality for thoughts that were
> unoriginal, or to appropriate another's deathless prose in hopes that she
> might be credited with a literary gift that belongs in truth to someone
> else."
Not at all familiar with this case, but it's not clear how should
could cite the sources, yet not give them credit. It seems as if it
should one or the other.
> Harvard History Teaching Fellow Lisa Laskin wrote:
>
> "H]ow can I teach students about the importance of attribution and original
> scholarship, when the institution behind us all tolerates plagiarism at the
> highest level? Allowing Goodwin to remain as Overseer of an academic
> institution is tantamount to condoning such behavior. Worse, it promotes a
> double standard, suggesting that indiscretions diminish in importance as
> one's fame and popularity grow."
If students and professors at Harvard do not understand intent then
they're in far more danger than the worst cheater. I've taught group
projects in school and if I could show that one student had not
attributed a source properly, I would not fail the whole team.
Furthermore, while I'd expect them all to read their text, I would
clearly look to their intent, and expect "reasonable" effort.
> Apparently, Ogletree realized that he need not worry given the environment
> at Harvard condoning plagiarism by the rich and famous.
Every article I've read seems to indicate that he didn't realize the
plagairism when it happened. Given this do you really believe your
above statement or are you lying like you usually do?
> In an earlier era, we find:
>
> "A Harvard professor and past president of a national professional society
> had to resign when it was revealed that review articles which he had
> authored many years previously included many unacknowledged quotes and
> paraphrases from sources. The demand for absolute integrity in academic work
> applies to everyone." (Brooklyn College Statement on Academic Integrity,
> adopted 1991.)
Was it written by the author or a research assistant or post-doc? I
bring up the Baltimore case because it more closely resembles the
Ogletree case. If Ogletree had written the passages in question I
think there would be a problem.
> When a student cheats, he is debasing only him/herself.
>
> When a professor cheats, s/he debases the entire institution.
Well I think you underestimate the impact of a student cheating, but I
agree with the general point.
But lets look at the definition of the word "cheat":
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of
cheating at cards.
Definitions from Dictionary.com (to avoid any plagairism on my part).
Ogletree nor Baltimore did either of the above. The question to ask
is, given a perfect lie detector machine where the following question
was asked, can the author answer the following question in the
affirmitive (and pass the test):
As far as you know has this paper been authored with integrity, and
has "reasonable" due dilligence on your part been used to ensure that
this is the case?
Both Baltmore and Ogletree pass this test (at least given the
information publicly available they do). In the same way George Bush
actually probably passes the Abu Ghurayb prison scandal. But if your
same logic applies, he should court marshaled himself.
Thanks,
KSG >> Stay informed about: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism |
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Since: Jul 24, 2003 Posts: 21
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Harvard Crimson Editorial On Ogletree's Plagiarism [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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