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Dana

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Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 300



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:39 am
Post subject: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion
Archived from groups: alt>education, others (more info?)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
Open Door to Religious Discrimination
The Supreme's Locke ruling.
By Susanna Dokupil
Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
(a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
sacrifices.
(b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
students who plan to study theology.



According to the Supreme Court opinion in Locke v. Davey, the answer is (b).
In a 7 to 2 opinion, it upheld Washington State's Promise Scholarship
program, which awards scholarships to graduating high-school seniors based
on class rank, standardized-test scores, and family income. These students
must enroll in an accredited college within Washington State. But, although
a scholarship recipient may use the money to attend a religious college, he
may not use it to pursue a religious degree. Joshua Davey, for instance,
earned such a Promise Scholarship, but he could not use it because he
intended to train for the ministry.

In recent years, the Court has repeatedly held that where the government
extends a benefit on neutral criteria, that benefit may go to religion as a
result of independent private choices without violating the Establishment
Clause. Indeed, it held in [Witters v. Washington Department of Services for
the Blind (1986) that the State may allow aid awarded on neutral criteria to
sponsor theological study. But in Locke v. Davey, the Court refused to hold
that the Free Exercise Clause required such sponsorship. Instead, it held
that Washington State could refuse scholarships to students pursuing
religious degrees in the interest of protecting its citizens against an
establishment of religion.

Washington State's program wrongfully discriminates against religion.
Everyone meeting the neutral criteria receives a scholarship except for
those pursuing a degree in theology. A previous Supreme Court opinion,
Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. Hialeah (1993), held that the city of
Hialeah, Florida, wrongfully prohibited ritualistic animal slaughter because
it singled out religion for disfavor.

But Chief Justice Rehnquist, writing for the court, found that Washington
State's scholarship program is acceptable because disfavors religion less
than the statute in Hialeah. It imposes no criminal or civil penalties on
religious exercise, nor does it require students to choose between their
religious beliefs and a government benefit. (One questions how this is
possible, given that a calling to the ministry is essentially a personal
religious belief.) Justice Scalia, in dissent, rightly explains that because
the state funds training for all professions, it may not carve out a special
exception for religious professions.

The majority opinion found it significant that many states around the time
of the Founding prohibited the use of tax dollars to support the ministry.
Certainly, it should be unconstitutional for states to pay pastors'
salaries. But here, Washington State is excluding a certain group of
students from money they would otherwise receive - solely because they want
to study theology.

Education is distinct from worship. Washington State has a broad funding
program for education, not only through the Promise Scholarships, but
through its public-school system. To the extent that the State's education
dollars here would support religion is only owing to the individual choices
of the students, not the state's.

Moreover, to distinguish between a religious college and a religious major
exalts form over function. At Joshua Davey's alma mater, Northwest College,
which is affiliated with the Assembly of God Church, every student must
profess "a personal commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." In many
religious colleges, every class is taught from a religious perspective, so
it makes little sense to say Washington State may exclude just that small
fraction of students who wish to pursue a ministerial calling.

The Supreme Court has blessed Washington State's exclusion of a small slice
of religion from a public benefit. Still more disconcerting is the principle
that some discrimination against religion may be acceptable in order to
guard against a violation of the Establishment Clause. Could Washington
State also exclude pastors from having library cards to ensure that public
money does not sponsor sermon preparation? Or, could it redraw bus routes
specifically to avoid churches?

Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion. The
government should not be able to sponsor professional training of everyone
except ministers any more than it may allow all animal slaughters except
religious sacrifices. But, the Court has merely allowed states a freer hand
in enacting measures that may discriminate against religion - it has not
mandated it. To the extent the Locke ruling may have pernicious effects, the
best protection against them is the vigilance of each state's citizens.


--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.

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Carol Lee Smith

External


Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 949



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, usenet was again spammed by Dana Raffaniello's
posting of copyrighted material:

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
> Open Door to Religious Discrimination
> The Supreme's Locke ruling.
> By Susanna Dokupil
> Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
> (a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
> sacrifices.
> (b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
> students who plan to study theology.

<snip copyrighted spam>


And Dana, as is his habit, again spams usenet with this little bit of
stolen intellectual property:

> --
> Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
> ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the
> state at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.

It would be easy, Dana, to just attribute these words to their author.

Exodus 20:15

http://snipurl.com/3qrw is the source. Why don't you include it each and
every time you crib this information?


"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson

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cbloon

External


Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:39:52 -0600, Carol Lee Smith
wrote:

>And Dana, as is his habit, again spams usenet with this little bit of
>stolen intellectual property:

Just for fun, go back and read the dingbat's own writing on various
issues........like the 2nd amendment.

He was so horribly mauled by dozens of writers he finally gave up.

Funny, but I actually stumbled on his dozens of sex ads while trying
to look up something he attributed to me.

DeJaNews archives USENET posts

Dana had posted to dozens of fetish groups looking for sick digusting
sex.



========================================================================================================

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>View this article only

>Newsgroups: alt.personals.fetish, alt.sex.fetish.watersportsDate: 1997/03/30

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>also. cyber or in person. ladies tell me your fantasy,on watersports.

>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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Cary Kittrell

External


Since: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 2804



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:09 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>education (more info?)

In article writes:
<

<http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
<Open Door to Religious Discrimination
<The Supreme's Locke ruling.
<By Susanna Dokupil


< Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
< (a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
< sacrifices.
< (b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
< students who plan to study theology.
<
<
<
<According to the Supreme Court opinion in Locke v. Davey, the answer is (b).

Wrong. The answer is "both of the above".


The concept of Compelling Interest would allow religious animal sacrifice
to be outlawed, just as it has allowed the outlawing of peyote in
Native American religious ceremonies.


-- cary
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Dana

External


Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 300



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>education, others (more info?)

"Carol Lee Smith" wrote in message

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
Open Door to Religious Discrimination
The Supreme's Locke ruling.
By Susanna Dokupil
Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
(a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
sacrifices.
(b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
students who plan to study theology.



According to the Supreme Court opinion in Locke v. Davey, the answer is (b).
In a 7 to 2 opinion, it upheld Washington State's Promise Scholarship
program, which awards scholarships to graduating high-school seniors based
on class rank, standardized-test scores, and family income. These students
must enroll in an accredited college within Washington State. But, although
a scholarship recipient may use the money to attend a religious college, he
may not use it to pursue a religious degree. Joshua Davey, for instance,
earned such a Promise Scholarship, but he could not use it because he
intended to train for the ministry.

In recent years, the Court has repeatedly held that where the government
extends a benefit on neutral criteria, that benefit may go to religion as a
result of independent private choices without violating the Establishment
Clause. Indeed, it held in [Witters v. Washington Department of Services for
the Blind (1986) that the State may allow aid awarded on neutral criteria to
sponsor theological study. But in Locke v. Davey, the Court refused to hold
that the Free Exercise Clause required such sponsorship. Instead, it held
that Washington State could refuse scholarships to students pursuing
religious degrees in the interest of protecting its citizens against an
establishment of religion.

Washington State's program wrongfully discriminates against religion.
Everyone meeting the neutral criteria receives a scholarship except for
those pursuing a degree in theology. A previous Supreme Court opinion,
Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. Hialeah (1993), held that the city of
Hialeah, Florida, wrongfully prohibited ritualistic animal slaughter because
it singled out religion for disfavor.

But Chief Justice Rehnquist, writing for the court, found that Washington
State's scholarship program is acceptable because disfavors religion less
than the statute in Hialeah. It imposes no criminal or civil penalties on
religious exercise, nor does it require students to choose between their
religious beliefs and a government benefit. (One questions how this is
possible, given that a calling to the ministry is essentially a personal
religious belief.) Justice Scalia, in dissent, rightly explains that because
the state funds training for all professions, it may not carve out a special
exception for religious professions.

The majority opinion found it significant that many states around the time
of the Founding prohibited the use of tax dollars to support the ministry.
Certainly, it should be unconstitutional for states to pay pastors'
salaries. But here, Washington State is excluding a certain group of
students from money they would otherwise receive - solely because they want
to study theology.

Education is distinct from worship. Washington State has a broad funding
program for education, not only through the Promise Scholarships, but
through its public-school system. To the extent that the State's education
dollars here would support religion is only owing to the individual choices
of the students, not the state's.

Moreover, to distinguish between a religious college and a religious major
exalts form over function. At Joshua Davey's alma mater, Northwest College,
which is affiliated with the Assembly of God Church, every student must
profess "a personal commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." In many
religious colleges, every class is taught from a religious perspective, so
it makes little sense to say Washington State may exclude just that small
fraction of students who wish to pursue a ministerial calling.

The Supreme Court has blessed Washington State's exclusion of a small slice
of religion from a public benefit. Still more disconcerting is the principle
that some discrimination against religion may be acceptable in order to
guard against a violation of the Establishment Clause. Could Washington
State also exclude pastors from having library cards to ensure that public
money does not sponsor sermon preparation? Or, could it redraw bus routes
specifically to avoid churches?

Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion. The
government should not be able to sponsor professional training of everyone
except ministers any more than it may allow all animal slaughters except
religious sacrifices. But, the Court has merely allowed states a freer hand
in enacting measures that may discriminate against religion - it has not
mandated it. To the extent the Locke ruling may have pernicious effects, the
best protection against them is the vigilance of each state's citizens.


--
Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the state
at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.
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Carol Lee Smith

External


Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 949



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, it falsely alleged that:

> "Carol Lee Smith" wrote in message

Sorry. I wrote nothing in this post:

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
> Open Door to Religious Discrimination
> The Supreme's Locke ruling.
> By Susanna Dokupil

<snip article--it was posted by Dana Raffaniello, not me>

And for good measure, Dana Raffaniello adds text which he has stolen and
posted without attribution:

> Atheism teaches that there is no God, hence no God-given rights. That
> ideology coupled with a system that believed in the superiority of the
> state at the expense of the individual was murderously synergistic.

Proof of Dana's plagiarism: http://snipurl.com/3qrw


"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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Carol Lee Smith

External


Since: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 949



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, it was posted by Dana Raffaniello and falsely
attributed to me:

> "Carol Lee Smith" wrote in message
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
> Open Door to Religious Discrimination
> The Supreme's Locke ruling.
> By Susanna Dokupil
> Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
> (a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
> sacrifices.
> (b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
> students who plan to study theology.

<snip material which I did not post, but which was posted by Dana
Raffaniello>

abuse RemoveThis @meganetnews.com has been advised that you are spamming information
to usenet and falsely attributing it to me.
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buckeye-ELO

External


Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 1666



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>education (more info?)

cary.DeleteThis@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell) wrote:

>:|In article writes:
>Neutral<
>Neutral
>Neutral<http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dokupil200402270920.asp
>Neutral<Open Door to Religious Discrimination
>Neutral<The Supreme's Locke ruling.
>Neutral<By Susanna Dokupil
>Neutral
>Neutral
>Neutral< Pop Quiz: Which of the following is constitutional?
>Neutral< (a) A city council passes ordinances designed to prohibit religious animal
>Neutral< sacrifices.
>Neutral< (b) A state creates a college scholarship program designed to exclude
>Neutral< students who plan to study theology.
>Neutral<
>Neutral<
>Neutral<
>Neutral<According to the Supreme Court opinion in Locke v. Davey, the answer is (b).
>Neutral
>:|Wrong. The answer is "both of the above".
>Neutral
>Neutral
>:|The concept of Compelling Interest would allow religious animal sacrifice
>:|to be outlawed, just as it has allowed the outlawing of peyote in
>:|Native American religious ceremonies.


I think that you will find that in Fla a number of years back a court
upheld the right of ritual animal sacrifice. I don't recall any of the
details.

Compelling interest was the old standard prior to Scalia's opinion in
Employment Division v Smith. That opinion is why some scholars and others
claim Scalia "trashed" the Free Exercise Clause of the BORs.

That ruling gave birth to the Religion Restoration law, or whatever it was
called which the USSC then shot down.

"Smith is a strong trend on the part of the Rehnquist Court to curtail Free
Exercise Rights." Emanuel Law Outlines. Constitutional Law , (1997) p. 723
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Joni Rathbun

External


Since: Mar 01, 2004
Posts: 152



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Jd wrote:

> Cary Kittrell wrote:
>
> >The concept of Compelling Interest would allow religious animal sacrifice
> >to be outlawed, just as it has allowed the outlawing of peyote in
> >Native American religious ceremonies.
> >
> >
> >-- cary
>
> Peyote is outlawed only if you get caught. Sorta like being a faggot
> was once outlawed if you got caught.
>
> Now that the door has been opened, no one can say anythings wrong with
> a man having dozens of wives legally, and married to all of them,
> while at the same time growing peyote form dung piles in his own back
> yard.
>
> Personally, I feel that if the RC church had turned in those
> homosexuals as soon as they started turning up in the RC church
> decades age, that we wouldn't be in all this mess we are now.
>
> Just look how easily those Islamists took care of those faggots who
> tried to get married over there in Medina. Just circled all 50 of
> 'em and carried them off to jail where they belong.
>
> It's really no wonder that Islam is the fastest growing religion upon
> the face of the earth. People overall are sick of immorality and
> Islam is delivering them results.
>
> Would you be frightened if Christianity were to discover that
> "results" increases membership?
>

Hate and violence are hardly *new* to Christianity.
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Jd

External


Since: Mar 02, 2004
Posts: 399



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:33 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bob LeChevalier

External


Since: Feb 20, 2004
Posts: 4011



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:49 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Jd wrote:
>Cary Kittrell wrote:
>
>>The concept of Compelling Interest would allow religious animal sacrifice
>>to be outlawed, just as it has allowed the outlawing of peyote in
>>Native American religious ceremonies.
>>
>>
>>-- cary
>
>Peyote is outlawed only if you get caught.

By that logic, NOTHING is outlawed unless you get got.

Nice concept of morality you have there. "Don't get caught" is the
only sin.

lojbab
--
lojbab lojbab RemoveThis @lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
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Jd

External


Since: Mar 02, 2004
Posts: 399



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jd

External


Since: Mar 02, 2004
Posts: 399



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: Locke v. Davey erodes the principle of neutrality toward religion [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: alt>politics>usa>constitution, others (more info?)

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