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buckeye-ELO

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Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 1666



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:54 pm
Post subject: The Origins of Human Rights
Archived from groups: alt>education, others (more info?)

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is

Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights in the Experiences of
Injustice
FROM THE PUBLISHER
"In Rights from Wrongs, renowned legal scholar Alan Dershowitz puts forward
a wholly new and compelling answer to one of the most persistent dilemmas
in both law and moral philosophy: where do our rights come from? Does
something called "natural law" really exist outside of what is written in
constitutions and legal statutes? If so, how can we know what this law
says, and why are rights not the same everywhere and in all eras?" In this
book, Dershowitz offers a fresh resolution to this age-old dilemma: Rights,
he argues, do not come from God, nature, logic, or law alone. They arise
out of particular human experiences with injustice. While justice is an
elusive concept, hard to define, and subject to conflicting
interpretations, injustice is immediate, intuitive, widely agreed upon, and
very tangible. Rights from Wrongs is the first book to propose a theory of
rights that emerges not from some theory of perfect justice but from its
opposite: from the bottom up, from trial and error, and from our collective
experience of injustice. Human rights come from human wrongs.
FROM THE CRITICS
Publisher's Weekly
The double meaning in Dershowitz's title indicates just one of the
insightful thoughts that mark the well-known Harvard law professor's latest
work. In tracing the evolution of rights, he argues forcefully against any
concept of natural rights deriving from religion and from law. Defining
himself as a pragmatist, Dershowitz asserts that human rights derive from
the world's experience with "wrongs," i.e., injustice. Only after seeing
genocide, for example, did the notion develop that this was a violation of
human rights. Dershowitz (Supreme Injustice) has a rare ability to develop
complex ideas in readable prose. In the book's first half, he carefully
examines the rationale for an experiential approach to rights; the second
half applies this approach to some of today's hot-button issues. Dershowitz
is often on the liberal side: for instance, he has little stomach for
literal interpretations of the Constitution-what he calls the "dead
constitution" approach. But he can surprise: he argues, for instance, that
Justice Scalia's "dead constitution" approach led him to a firmer defense
of individual rights than other justices in the recent Hamdi case. Whether
conservative or liberal, absolutist or relativist, readers will find areas
of disagreement, but most will concur that a talented and creative legal
mind is at work. Agent, Helen Rees Literary Agency. (Nov. 12) Copyright
2004 Reed Business Information.
*********************************************************************************

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wcb

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Since: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 10



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: The Origins of Human Rights [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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buckeye-ELO.DeleteThis@nospam.net wrote:

>
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
>
> Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights in the Experiences of
> Injustice
> FROM THE PUBLISHER
> "In Rights from Wrongs, renowned legal scholar Alan Dershowitz puts
> forward a wholly new and compelling answer to one of the most persistent
> dilemmas in both law and moral philosophy: where do our rights come from?
> Does something called "natural law" really exist outside of what is
> written in constitutions and legal statutes? If so, how can we know what
> this law says, and why are rights not the same everywhere and in all
> eras?" In this book, Dershowitz offers a fresh resolution to this age-old
> dilemma: Rights, he argues, do not come from God, nature, logic, or law
> alone. They arise out of particular human experiences with injustice.
> While justice is an elusive concept, hard to define, and subject to
> conflicting interpretations, injustice is immediate, intuitive, widely
> agreed upon, and very tangible. Rights from Wrongs is the first book to
> propose a theory of rights that emerges not from some theory of perfect
> justice but from its opposite: from the bottom up, from trial and error,
> and from our collective experience of injustice. Human rights come from
> human wrongs.

The first book to expound on this? Incredible, it seems so obvious.



> FROM THE CRITICS
> Publisher's Weekly
> The double meaning in Dershowitz's title indicates just one of the
> insightful thoughts that mark the well-known Harvard law professor's
> latest work. In tracing the evolution of rights, he argues forcefully
> against any concept of natural rights deriving from religion and from law.
> Defining himself as a pragmatist, Dershowitz asserts that human rights
> derive from the world's experience with "wrongs," i.e., injustice. Only
> after seeing genocide, for example, did the notion develop that this was a
> violation of human rights. Dershowitz (Supreme Injustice) has a rare
> ability to develop complex ideas in readable prose. In the book's first
> half, he carefully examines the rationale for an experiential approach to
> rights; the second half applies this approach to some of today's
> hot-button issues. Dershowitz is often on the liberal side: for instance,
> he has little stomach for literal interpretations of the Constitution-what
> he calls the "dead constitution" approach. But he can surprise: he argues,
> for instance, that Justice Scalia's "dead constitution" approach led him
> to a firmer defense of individual rights than other justices in the recent
> Hamdi case. Whether conservative or liberal, absolutist or relativist,
> readers will find areas of disagreement, but most will concur that a
> talented and creative legal mind is at work. Agent, Helen Rees Literary
> Agency. (Nov. 12) Copyright 2004 Reed Business Information.
>
*********************************************************************************

--


Cheerful Charlie

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Jez

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Since: Jan 03, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:24 pm
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buckeye-ELO.RemoveThis@nospam.net wrote:
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
>
> Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights in the Experiences of
> Injustice

Did human rights come from left-handed people?

Smile
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn


NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
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Dana

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Since: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 88



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:34 pm
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buckeye-ELO.DeleteThis@nospam.net wrote:

>
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
>
> Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights

Comes from mans creator. Just look at the DOI to get a clue.
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Epimetheus

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Since: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:49 am
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Archived from groups: alt>education (more info?)

"Dana" <dana DeleteThis @255.255.255> wrote in message
news:10u8v20sgghfn1c@corp.supernews.com...
> buckeye-ELO DeleteThis @nospam.net wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
> >
> > Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights
>
> Comes from mans creator. Just look at the DOI to get a clue.
>


The Creator? You mean that imaginary friend who lives in the sky that you
religious fanatics have?
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Dana

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Since: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 88



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:49 am
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Epimetheus wrote:

>
> "Dana" <dana RemoveThis @255.255.255> wrote in message
> news:10u8v20sgghfn1c@corp.supernews.com...
>> buckeye-ELO RemoveThis @nospam.net wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
>> >
>> > Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights
>>
>> Comes from mans creator. Just look at the DOI to get a clue.
>>
>
>
> The Creator? You mean that imaginary friend who lives in the sky that
> you religious fanatics have?

Nope.
Lets see if you have any independent intelligent thought.
Why don't you try again.
Why are you atheist fanatics such a hateful bunch??
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Michelle Malkin

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Since: May 15, 2004
Posts: 19



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:55 am
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"Dana" <dana.TakeThisOut@255.255.255> wrote in message
news:10u8v20sgghfn1c@corp.supernews.com...
> buckeye-ELO.TakeThisOut@nospam.net wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
> >
> > Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights
>
> Comes from mans creator. Just look at the DOI to get a clue.

Try actually reading the Declaration of Independence to get a clue.
It isn't a religious document. In fact, Jefferson didn't even want a
mention of any creator to be in it. There was no such mention in
his original version. He was forced to put it in. Jefferson believed
in separation of church and state long before the Constitution even
existed. Did you ever read Jefferson's Bill For Establishing Religious
Freedom? Have you even studied Jefferson or the Declaration at all?
I very seriously doubt it. If you ever had a clue, you lost it long ago.
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oconnell

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Since: Dec 10, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:08 am
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Archived from groups: alt>education, others (more info?)

zerkanX wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:54:16 -0500, buckeye-EL wrote:
[snip]
> > Human rights come from human wrongs.
>
> Again, wrong. Law might come from wrong but rights are not the same
as law in
> any American sense. The central point of Americanism is that law does
not give
> rights but recognizes and guards, not gives or creates, inalienable
conditions
> with which all humans, everywhere, are born. The law, the social
contract with
> government, calls these 'rights' which in fact come from being human.
You may
> call it human 'Nature' or human 'Nature's God' but the point of
arrival is the
> same.

They don't come from being human, they come from human beings. We
"create" these rights. Just as man has created good and evil, he
has created rights, human or otherwise. Doesn't make them any less
than what you describe. Governments should and must (to their own
peril really) acknowledge and protect them, predominately because
they are individual in nature an should not be subject to the
negotiations of this "social contract".

The suggestion however that we "discover" these rights by
experiencing
injustice, parallels the BoR closely. 2 - 6 can almost be traced
directly
to actions of the government in the immediate vacinity (in time) to the
creation of the BoR. One could suggest the same for much of what is in
the Magna Carta as well. To some extent, Dershowitz is merely trying
to acknowledge history.
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zerkanX

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Since: Apr 30, 2005
Posts: 75



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:56 am
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On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:54:16 -0500, buckeye-EL wrote:

> While justice is an
> elusive concept, hard to define, and subject to conflicting
> interpretations, injustice is immediate, intuitive, widely agreed upon, and
> very tangible

Very, very *VERY* wrong.

You can not separate the two. What one is so is the other. It might be that it
is easier for a certain individual because of his or her profession, let's say
as an example, a defense lawyer, to be trained and conditioned to easily see
injustice because that's what pays the bills and gets books published but this
is like a doctor saying it's easier to define sickness than it is health.

> Human rights come from human wrongs.

Again, wrong. Law might come from wrong but rights are not the same as law in
any American sense. The central point of Americanism is that law does not give
rights but recognizes and guards, not gives or creates, inalienable conditions
with which all humans, everywhere, are born. The law, the social contract with
government, calls these 'rights' which in fact come from being human. You may
call it human 'Nature' or human 'Nature's God' but the point of arrival is the
same.

File this book under Victimology.
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buckeye-ELO

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Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 1666



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:19 pm
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"zerkanX" <zerkanX DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote:

>:|On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:54:16 -0500, buckeye-EL wrote:
>Neutral
>Neutral> While justice is an
>Neutral> elusive concept, hard to define, and subject to conflicting
>Neutral> interpretations, injustice is immediate, intuitive, widely agreed upon, and
>Neutral> very tangible
>Neutral
>:|Very, very *VERY* wrong.
>Neutral
>:|You can not separate the two. What one is so is the other. It might be that it
>:|is easier for a certain individual because of his or her profession, let's say
>:|as an example, a defense lawyer, to be trained and conditioned to easily see
>:|injustice because that's what pays the bills and gets books published but this
>:|is like a doctor saying it's easier to define sickness than it is health.
>Neutral
>Neutral> Human rights come from human wrongs.
>Neutral
>:|Again, wrong. Law might come from wrong but rights are not the same as law in
>:|any American sense. The central point of Americanism is that law does not give
>:|rights but recognizes and guards, not gives or creates, inalienable conditions
>:|with which all humans, everywhere, are born. The law, the social contract with
>:|government, calls these 'rights' which in fact come from being human. You may
>:|call it human 'Nature' or human 'Nature's God' but the point of arrival is the
>:|same.
>Neutral
>:|File this book under Victimology.

Have you read the book?
I have it on order, but I would have to say that only a fool would embark
on arguing with a publisher who has written a short blurb about a book that
is being marketed and which this person who is arguing has never actually
read.

File your comments under foolish. You are sounding like Strickland now.
Ahhhh, but I seem to recall some posting on your part about the DOI

Alan has a book out on that topic as well. Maybe you might want to read it

http://www.elx.com.au/item/0471264822
America Declares Independence
ISBN: 0471264822
Hardback 208 pages
Published in Jun 2003 by Wiley US
Author: Alan Dershowitz
SKU: 0471264822

Author Bio Table of Contents
America Declares Independence
The Declaration of Independence as you?ve never seen it before

Some of us cherish it with near-scriptural reverence. Others simply take it
for granted. In this contentious new look at the Declaration of
Independence, however, celebrated attorney Alan Dershowitz takes "America?s
birth certificate" and its principal author, Thomas Jefferson, to task.

Dershowitz searches for the sources, history, and underlying reasoning that
produced the Declaration and its particular language, from its reference to
the "Laws of Nature and Nature?s God" through the long list of complaints
against the abuses of King George III. He points out contradictions within
the document, notes how the meanings of Jefferson?s words have changed over
the centuries, and asks many disturbing questions, including:

* Where do rights come from?
* Do we have "unalienable rights"?
* Do rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" have any
meaning?
* How could slaveowners claim to believe that "all men are created
equal"?
* Is the God of the Declaration the God of the Bible?
* Does the Declaration establish a Christian State?
* Are there "Laws of Nature and of Nature?s God"?

Challenging, upsetting, and controversial, this brilliant polemic may anger
you, delight you, or force you to reexamine your opinions. One thing?s for
sure: after reading America Declares Independence, you?ll never take the
Declaration of Independence for granted again.
Author Bio
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, a professor at Harvard Law School, is considered one of
America?s foremost appellate lawyers and most distinguished defenders of
individual rights. He has written numerous bestselling books, is a
newspaper columnist, and has written for dozens of periodicals, including
the New York Times, the Atlantic, the Yale Law Journal, and the Harvard Law
Review. His previous books include the #1 New York Times bestseller
Chutzpah.
Table of Contents
Acknowledgments.

Introduction.

Chapter 1. Who is the God of the Declaration?

Chapter 2. What Are "The Laws of Nature and Nature's God"?

Chapter 3. How Can Jefferson's Views of Equality and Slavery Be Reconciled?

Conclusion.

Appendix: The Declaration of Independence.

Notes.

Index.
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Curly Surmudgeon

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Since: May 11, 2005
Posts: 219



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:19 pm
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:19:33 -0500, buckeye-ELO wrote:

> "zerkanX" <zerkanX.RemoveThis@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>:|On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:54:16 -0500, buckeye-EL wrote:
>>Neutral
>>Neutral> While justice is an
>>Neutral> elusive concept, hard to define, and subject to conflicting
>>Neutral> interpretations, injustice is immediate, intuitive, widely agreed upon, and
>>Neutral> very tangible
>>Neutral
>>:|Very, very *VERY* wrong.
>>Neutral
>>:|You can not separate the two. What one is so is the other. It might be that it
>>:|is easier for a certain individual because of his or her profession, let's say
>>:|as an example, a defense lawyer, to be trained and conditioned to easily see
>>:|injustice because that's what pays the bills and gets books published but this
>>:|is like a doctor saying it's easier to define sickness than it is health.
>>Neutral
>>Neutral> Human rights come from human wrongs.
>>Neutral
>>:|Again, wrong. Law might come from wrong but rights are not the same as law in
>>:|any American sense. The central point of Americanism is that law does not give
>>:|rights but recognizes and guards, not gives or creates, inalienable conditions
>>:|with which all humans, everywhere, are born. The law, the social contract with
>>:|government, calls these 'rights' which in fact come from being human. You may
>>:|call it human 'Nature' or human 'Nature's God' but the point of arrival is the
>>:|same.
>>Neutral
>>:|File this book under Victimology.
>
> Have you read the book?
> I have it on order, but I would have to say that only a fool would embark
> on arguing with a publisher who has written a short blurb about a book that
> is being marketed and which this person who is arguing has never actually
> read.

Argue the issue, not hurl ad homenims.

-- Regards, Curly
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com/blog/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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buckeye-ELO

External


Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 1666



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:23 pm
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Curly Surmudgeon <curly.TakeThisOut@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote:

>Neutral> Have you read the book?
>Neutral> I have it on order, but I would have to say that only a fool would embark
>Neutral> on arguing with a publisher who has written a short blurb about a book that
>Neutral> is being marketed and which this person who is arguing has never actually
>Neutral> read.
>Neutral
>:|Argue the issue, not hurl ad homenims.
>Neutral
>Neutral-- Regards, Curly


You got appointed Usenet cop?
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Curly Surmudgeon

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Since: May 11, 2005
Posts: 219



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:23 pm
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:23:50 -0500, buckeye-ELO wrote:

> Curly Surmudgeon <curly.TakeThisOut@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote:
>
>>Neutral> Have you read the book?
>>Neutral> I have it on order, but I would have to say that only a fool would embark
>>Neutral> on arguing with a publisher who has written a short blurb about a book that
>>Neutral> is being marketed and which this person who is arguing has never actually
>>Neutral> read.
>>Neutral
>>:|Argue the issue, not hurl ad homenims.
>>Neutral
>>Neutral-- Regards, Curly
>
>
> You got appointed Usenet cop?

Consider it a suggestion. The sheer volume of hostility and abuse here
tends to make people ignore those who use ad homenims and obsenities.
There was no need to attack zerkanX for his opinion even if you consider
it wrong. Manners are never inappropriate.

Shread his ideas, not attack the person. Otherwise the brunt of your
arguement will be lost even if it's valid and reasonable.

-- Regards, Curly
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com/blog/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Dana

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Since: Dec 27, 2004
Posts: 88



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:45 pm
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Michelle Malkin wrote:

>
> "Dana" <dana.RemoveThis@255.255.255> wrote in message
> news:10u8v20sgghfn1c@corp.supernews.com...
>> buckeye-ELO.RemoveThis@nospam.net wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ba6...eAxi&is
>> >
>> > Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights
>>
>> Comes from mans creator. Just look at the DOI to get a clue.
>
> Try actually reading the Declaration of Independence to get a clue.

Maybe you should. But we know how you atheists cannot think for
yourselves.

> It isn't a religious document.

No one said it was. But it does recognize a creator.
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buckeye-ELO

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Since: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 1666



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:06 pm
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Curly Surmudgeon <curly.TakeThisOut@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote:

>:|On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:23:50 -0500, buckeye-ELO wrote:
>Neutral
>Neutral> Curly Surmudgeon <curly.TakeThisOut@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote:
>Neutral>
>Neutral>>Neutral> Have you read the book?
>Neutral>>Neutral> I have it on order, but I would have to say that only a fool would embark
>Neutral>>Neutral> on arguing with a publisher who has written a short blurb about a book that
>Neutral>>Neutral> is being marketed and which this person who is arguing has never actually
>Neutral>>Neutral> read.
>Neutral>>Neutral
>Neutral>>:|Argue the issue, not hurl ad homenims.
>Neutral>>Neutral
>Neutral>>Neutral-- Regards, Curly
>Neutral>
>Neutral>
>Neutral> You got appointed Usenet cop?
>Neutral
>:|Consider it a suggestion. The sheer volume of hostility and abuse here
>:|tends to make people ignore those who use ad homenims and obsenities.
>:|There was no need to attack zerkanX for his opinion even if you consider
>:|it wrong. Manners are never inappropriate.

Gee guy I recall you jumping all over a guy not so long ago. A guy who
happens to be on your side in the church debate issue.

However, you jumped in his face because you had misunderstood what he had
said.

Therefore I suggest you follow your own advice.

>Neutral
>:|Shread his ideas, not attack the person. Otherwise the brunt of your
>:|arguement will be lost even if it's valid and reasonable.

Actually I did that, seems as if you misunderstood again.

He has never read the book. What he was actually commenting on was the
publishers blurb about the book. not the book itself nor anything
necessarily the author of that book had written.
His unsubstantiated opinion was just that, an unsubstantiated opinion of
what the publisher had written.

I am not very big on unsubstantiated opinion of people I run into in Usenet
That isn't what I am about at all.
In addition to that we have a bit of history, zerkanX and I.
Now just to be clear this is what I am about:

=========================================================
While I do have some structured formal legal training, and thus am
not just a layman in the area, I am not a lawyer. Therefore, I don't
interpret the Constitution. I leave that to experts who are qualified.
What I do is not at all complicated, though many people seem to
have a hard time dealing with what I do. Based on the reactions to what I
do by many people. Most notably, those that I have provided evidence that
their claims were incorrect. In short, those that were a bit embarrassed.
What I do is summed up in the following:
If one were to read that which I provide (the URLs and my overall
posts/replies that I post) They would see that I not only stated facts, I
provided evidence backing up that which I have posted. I supply
information from experts in the field, usually from more than one source. I
frequently provide the entire document, which makes for long posts, but
also provides the complete context the information existed in originally.
When I provide quotes, I will properly and completely cite that quote,
using the standard rules of citation. Frequently, I will provide primary
source historical and or legal data. I do not merely provide my opinion.
In fact, seldom do I ever provide my opinion. My personal opinion is
irrelevant.
Have I educated? I would hope so. If one would have read the
information that I provided, examined it and explored further...maybe
looked up the works I cited from which if secondary source material is from
some of the best scholars, and respected qualified contemporary thinkers.
If one would have done that, they would have had the potential to have
learned some things.
I am prepared to respond with evidence, and facts, and will state
when something I provide is a personal belief and as already pointed out, I
rarely post my own beliefs so that would be rare.
I am not here to "debate", not here to argue, not here to give
legitimacy by even discussing false, flawed, misrepresenting or otherwise
bogus theories, personal opinions or personal beliefs. I will point out
and rebut with primary and secondary source data, facts, etc each of those
that I find. I will point out each and every improperly cited quote, each
bogus quote and to be quite honest, any improperly cited quote has to be
viewed as being bogus until someone provides a proper cite for it.
If attacked personally, I will give as good as I get. Those who
troll will be so labeled. Those who are more concerned with spreading
propaganda and or unsubstantiated claims and are not are not interested in
facts, truth, etc will be so identified. I am very big on the following:

Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propanganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate
with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are attempting
to clarify.
*****************************************************************
I expect people to back up their claims and if their claims have any merit,
they should be able to back them up with evidence from others, properly
cited, of course.
Anyone can be incorrect about something, but once a person has
been shown with evidence that they were incorrect about something, and they
ignore that and continue saying the same things in another thread in
another newsgroup or continue in the same thread and same newsgroup, they
have lost any and all rights to respect and will be so identified for who
and what they are.
A person doesn't have to agree with the material, however, their
saying they don't agree with it, isn't good enough. They are going to have
to show, with their own evidence, point by point, that which I have
provided is "incorrect." After all, that is what I do with the claims they
have made.
I target my posts and replies to the REAL audience. The Real
audience is not the person I am replying to. In all probability, their mind
is already made up. The real audience are those who come into the various
newsgroups and read posts and replies found there, but seldom if ever post
or reply themselves.
The real audience that matters are those who came yesterday will
come today and will come tomorrow and thanks to web crawlers like those run
by Google many, many, many, tomorrows after that. Those are the people who
in time may actually make a difference.
The above is what I am about.
 >> Stay informed about: The Origins of Human Rights 
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