Poor, poor pitiful us

"Cary Kittrell" <cary RemoveThis @afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>
>
> Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
> among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some Christians to
> portray Christians in America as pitiable beleagured victims of
> oppression and persecution. Never mind that like-minded
> politicians are firmly in control of the government, never mind
> that they have so large a majority that no admitted atheist could
> ever win a major election, never mind tax breaks and legislative
> special rights such as Least Compelling Interest, never mind
> uncounted tens of thousands of freely flourishing churches, never
> mind a culture that will reflexively call for unified prayers to
> God whenever He commits an Act of Himself -- never mind that
> conservative Christians today have a lock on the levers of power
> that Boss Tweed would have admired -- they're still poor, poor
> pitiful victims.
>
> Well, that was fun, and I feel MUCH better now -- but before
> anyone launches a rant: that wasn't what I'd like some feedback
> on. Quite the opposite: I see not infrequent, and rather like-
> sounding claims of victimhood on the part of atheists.
>
> Now admittedly atheists are the runt of the demographic litter in
> this country, but nonetheless I personally cannot recall having
> been subjected to anything I could describe as more than mildly
> annoying on account of to my atheism. And I certainly have
> suffered any dark-of-the-night Southern-gothic incidents.
>
> But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
> and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
> people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
> between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
> sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
>
> I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>
> Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> personally to be an atheist.

Please consider including us poor put-upon agnostics who have to endure good
christians telling us and others that agnostics simply don't know about god
yet and are just empty vessels awaiting the word to be poured in.

I've had a few incedents with condescending christians, both friends and
family, and grew up in a time when some schools still had prayer and the
Pledge before the start of school. I could list some of the more annoying
ones if you'd like, but they were merely personal interactions and not
anything that restricted my rights.

More interesting might be cataloging those events that we never hear about
where kids were forced to pray or study the bible in public schools and were
harrassed when they refused. If you or anyone else knows a few of these
stories you might consider posting them also.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

"Cary Kittrell" <cary DeleteThis @afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>
>
> Atheists roll their eyes,

Atheists are foolish cowards.
They are a bunch of sheep.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

Cary Kittrell wrote:
> I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>
> Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> personally to be an atheist.

I've got some siblings and in-laws I'm careful around
at family get-togethers - I don't plan on converting
them, I'd rather they didn't have an excuse to try
and convert me (again), I've taught my children
to be respectful of their beliefs by finding other
things we have in common.

At my last job, a person who thought he was my
manager caught up to me in a storeroom and asked
me a list of pointed questions about which church
I belonged to. It was easy for me to see that
he thought my future success there depended on
my having the right answers, though I don't think
he had that kind of power at the time. Still,
I was happy to move on when my current position
became available.

I have realized that there are two cliques
at my current place of employment: those
who belong to the local Catholic church, and
those who belong to the local Baptist church.
It is the norm for hiring and promotion
decisions to be shaped by how well a person's
superiors know the candidate socially - i.e.,
whether the candidate belongs to the same
church as the superior who is making the
decision. I once saw a department head create
a professional position specifically to be
filled by the guy he met at a church service,
though that didn't end well.

I was once evicted from an apartment when the
church next door purchased the building to
use as a community center of some sort. My
landlord complained that the two churches
who wanted his building were pressuring him
to sell or even donate the building, and he
seemed very stressed about it, but I never
found out how he was being pressured. While
the eviction process was ongoing, the pastor
of the winning church chaired a workshop on the
homelessness problem in our community. The
irony amused me, especially when - right
after the sale went through - said pastor,
his church secretary and an undisclosed
quantity of his church's funds disappeared.
Seven years later and this church still hasn't
used that expensive apartment building for
anything but storage.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:26:31 +0000 (UTC), cary DeleteThis @afone.as.arizona.edu
(Cary Kittrell)wrote:

>Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
>observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
>I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
>personally to be an atheist.

I can't get elected president.

FNC, oh, wait....
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:26:31 +0000 (UTC), cary.DeleteThis@afone.as.arizona.edu
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:

>...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>
>
>Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
>among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some Christians to
>portray Christians in America as pitiable beleagured victims of
>oppression and persecution. Never mind that like-minded
>politicians are firmly in control of the government, never mind
>that they have so large a majority that no admitted atheist could
>ever win a major election, never mind tax breaks and legislative
>special rights such as Least Compelling Interest, never mind
>uncounted tens of thousands of freely flourishing churches, never
>mind a culture that will reflexively call for unified prayers to
>God whenever He commits an Act of Himself -- never mind that
>conservative Christians today have a lock on the levers of power
>that Boss Tweed would have admired -- they're still poor, poor
>pitiful victims.
>
>Well, that was fun, and I feel MUCH better now -- but before
>anyone launches a rant: that wasn't what I'd like some feedback
>on. Quite the opposite: I see not infrequent, and rather like-
>sounding claims of victimhood on the part of atheists.
>
>Now admittedly atheists are the runt of the demographic litter in
>this country, but nonetheless I personally cannot recall having
>been subjected to anything I could describe as more than mildly
>annoying on account of to my atheism. And I certainly have
>suffered any dark-of-the-night Southern-gothic incidents.
>
>But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
>and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
>people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
>between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
>sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
>
>I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
>oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>
>Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
>observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
>I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
>personally to be an atheist.
>
>
>-- cary

I was harassed a bit in school - not for being atheist persay, but for
not being in one of the regular churches. I was a unitarian and the
kids, not knowing what that was, assumed it was jewish. I also had to
deal with a revival being staged in the school gym during high school.
I ended up sitting in some room alone with a teacher during it because
I refused to go and then got taunted for it a bit by the older boys
later on.

Mostly people don't seem to know what to do if you say you are an
atheist. I guess because it seems more in your face - 'you are wrong'
than just being a different religion, when in truth - all religions
think the other are wrong and there is no difference on that point.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

In article <1112723807.644920.326660.DeleteThis@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"skyeyes" <skyeyes.DeleteThis@dakotacom.net> wrote:

> Cary Kitterell wrote:
>
> >Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
> >among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some
> >Christians to portray Christians in America as pitiable
> >beleagured victims of oppression and persecution.
>
> There's nothing "recent" about their persecution complex, Cary. They
> were lamenting about it 50 years ago when I was an itty bitty theist
> being dragged to Sunday school and church every week. Being
> "persecuted" is proof, to them, that they are true followers/believers,
> because the Bible *says* *so*. Therefore, if they aren't *really*
> suffering persecution, they aren't true believers. So they howl about
> persecution that isn't really happening, because they need it to get
> their heavenly tickets punched.
>
> Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
> EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
>

There's a more practical reason as well. Christians learned long ago
that cultivating that image of beleagured martyrdom helps fill the
collection box. Never forget, they worship a deity who has an insatiable
need for money.

--
George Ricker

"'God' is a penny in the
fuse box of reality."
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

In article <1155ljc5sp50540 DeleteThis @corp.supernews.com> "Dave Thompson" <abre DeleteThis @thedoor.com> writes:
>
> "Cary Kittrell" <cary DeleteThis @afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
> news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> > ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
> >
{...}
> >
> > But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
> > and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
> > people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
> > between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
> > sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
> >
> > I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> > oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
> >
> > Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> > observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> > I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> > personally to be an atheist.
>
> Please consider including us poor put-upon agnostics who have to endure good
> christians telling us and others that agnostics simply don't know about god
> yet and are just empty vessels awaiting the word to be poured in.

Ah, of course. Good point. I'm interesting in hearing from
the unfaithful of all flavors (particularly as, just like
believers we often enough disagree on what we, and others,
should be described as)


-- cary
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

"Cary Kittrell" <cary.RemoveThis@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d2umir$irn$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> In article <1155ljc5sp50540.RemoveThis@corp.supernews.com> "Dave Thompson"
> <abre.RemoveThis@thedoor.com> writes:
>>
>> "Cary Kittrell" <cary.RemoveThis@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
>> news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
>> > ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>> >
> {...}
>> >
>> > But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
>> > and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
>> > people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
>> > between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
>> > sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
>> >
>> > I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
>> > oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>> >
>> > Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
>> > observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
>> > I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
>> > personally to be an atheist.
>>
>> Please consider including us poor put-upon agnostics who have to endure
>> good
>> christians telling us and others that agnostics simply don't know about
>> god
>> yet and are just empty vessels awaiting the word to be poured in.
>
> Ah, of course. Good point. I'm interesting in hearing from
> the unfaithful of all flavors (particularly as, just like
> believers we often enough disagree on what we, and others,
> should be described as)

I forgot to add that many times Christians lump us agnostics in with the
atheists for simplicity of argument an villification.

The worst that's happened to me was a very loud argument with a very
condescending woman who insisted on speaking for me and putting words in my
mouth regarding my agnostic status.

When I said I was an agnostic during a party, she piped in rather arrogantly
that agnostics are just people who don't know god, and that if only we were
properly witnessed to that we would eventually come around. I started off
correcting her politely enough, but she kept insisting that I was wrong
about my own beliefs and told me what I really believed, no matter what I
claimed to believe. I'm sure many people have encountered this type on the
web but few are lucky enough to meet one in the flesh.

Needless to say, it got ugly after that. She got a rather long rant about
how I felt that made her trot outside and avoid me for the rest of the
evening. I recieved several compliments for putting her in her place and
none criticizing me.

Another time my brother in law angrily left our house during what was
supposed to be a weekend visit because we refused to accept a loving god
into our hearts, and emailed every one of his siblings with a diatribe
describing us as hateful and suggesting that we were abusing our children by
not ministering his beliefs in Jesus to them.

We later rented that same house to that same brother in law, and he repaid
us by claiming the house had demons, staging a prayer marathon to drive them
out, and then breaking the lease.

Another brother in law was getting married, and his then fiance who is
happily non-religious was invited to her future mother in law's house to
supposedly make wedding announcements. Upon arrival she found it was a ruse
and she was going to be subjected to a gang conversion by the members of her
MiL's reformationist catholic church. They blocked the door while insisting
she accept Jesus and when she got out they blocked her car. She had to call
her fiance to get him to get her out.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

"Cary Kittrell" <cary RemoveThis @afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>
>
> Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
> among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some Christians to
> portray Christians in America as pitiable beleagured victims of
> oppression and persecution. Never mind that like-minded
> politicians are firmly in control of the government, never mind
> that they have so large a majority that no admitted atheist could
> ever win a major election, never mind tax breaks and legislative
> special rights such as Least Compelling Interest, never mind
> uncounted tens of thousands of freely flourishing churches, never
> mind a culture that will reflexively call for unified prayers to
> God whenever He commits an Act of Himself -- never mind that
> conservative Christians today have a lock on the levers of power
> that Boss Tweed would have admired -- they're still poor, poor
> pitiful victims.
>
> Well, that was fun, and I feel MUCH better now -- but before
> anyone launches a rant: that wasn't what I'd like some feedback
> on. Quite the opposite: I see not infrequent, and rather like-
> sounding claims of victimhood on the part of atheists.
>
> Now admittedly atheists are the runt of the demographic litter in
> this country, but nonetheless I personally cannot recall having
> been subjected to anything I could describe as more than mildly
> annoying on account of to my atheism. And I certainly have
> suffered any dark-of-the-night Southern-gothic incidents.
>
> But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
> and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
> people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
> between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
> sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
>
> I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>
> Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> personally to be an atheist.
>
>
> -- cary
>
There's plenty of oppression that you would never notice in your academic
ivory tower. I won't go into it now however, because it's too personal. I
would have to at least collect some of my thoughts, which are very valuable
to collectors because of their rarity.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

Cary Kittrell wrote:
> ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
>
>
> Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
> among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some Christians to
> portray Christians in America as pitiable beleagured victims of
> oppression and persecution. Never mind that like-minded
> politicians are firmly in control of the government, never mind
> that they have so large a majority that no admitted atheist could
> ever win a major election, never mind tax breaks and legislative
> special rights such as Least Compelling Interest, never mind
> uncounted tens of thousands of freely flourishing churches, never
> mind a culture that will reflexively call for unified prayers to
> God whenever He commits an Act of Himself -- never mind that
> conservative Christians today have a lock on the levers of power
> that Boss Tweed would have admired -- they're still poor, poor
> pitiful victims.
>
> Well, that was fun, and I feel MUCH better now -- but before
> anyone launches a rant: that wasn't what I'd like some feedback
> on. Quite the opposite: I see not infrequent, and rather like-
> sounding claims of victimhood on the part of atheists.
>
> Now admittedly atheists are the runt of the demographic litter in
> this country, but nonetheless I personally cannot recall having
> been subjected to anything I could describe as more than mildly
> annoying on account of to my atheism. And I certainly have
> suffered any dark-of-the-night Southern-gothic incidents.
>
> But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
> and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
> people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
> between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
> sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
>
> I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
>
> Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> personally to be an atheist.
>
>
> -- cary
>
I've been on the receiving end of some very low level persecution. My
car has been keyed in response to bumper stickers, my house has been the
target of some juvenile style vandalism and I am a frequent target of
proselytizing missionaries in my neighborhood. Except for the damage to
my car, all of this is more or less just a nuciance for I give as good
as I get. I argue with missionaries, I proudly display bumper stickers
and T-shirts that support atheist and left wing issues and I fully
support evolution. I am also happy to allow churches and other
mythology based organizations to do their thing. I just wish they would
do me the same courtesy.

--
Skydivers don't knock on death's door; they ring the bell and run
away... It really pisses him off.

The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

Well, I have two such anecdotes: First, I was basically driven
out of the boy scouts after they noticed I wasn't praying when
they prayed (just standing respectfully until they were done).
This lead to my being 'outted' as an atheist, which was followed
by proselytization attempts, followed by such nastiness as
pouring water in my bedroll when I was off gathering wood
during a winter hike, etc. I was made to feel unwelcome, with
the scoutmaster completely in cahoots, so I left.

More seriously, I once was in a position where I was assaulted
for being an atheist. A Christian complemented me on what
a good Christian I was, and I made the mistake of mentioning
that I am an atheist, not a Christian. Next thing I knew, he
grabbed onto my arm and declared that he wasn't going to
let go until I converted. He got increasingly angry as I
wouldn't convert. When he yelled 'What do I have to do to
get you to accept Jesus, leave you lying beaten and bloody
until you see him for yourself?!?' I wrenched myself free
and ran for it. (And had the police have a talk with the guy
- which, I fully admit, they did promptly and effectively; he
never even came near me again.)

That said, I am not claiming that these events make me
'persecuted'. They were unpleasant, they were examples
of dealing with bigotry and/or violence ... but I don't think
them to be so unusual that I would claim to be persecuted.
I'm just a member of an unpopular minority - actually,
several, given that I'm also Jewish, a gamer, a member
of academia, a moderate Democrat ...
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

Cary Kittrell wrote:

>Well, in all fairness although their may be vast numbers of Christian
>posters to Usenet who envy the martyr and clutch at the mantle
>of victimhood -- KC and CB come immediately to mind -- among the
>Christians I know personally, I've never heard anyone try to claim
>suchlike.

You obviously don't hang with many fundamentalists. I heard little
else *but* the persecution/martyrdom rants the entire length of my
childhood. Still hear them from old fundamentalist family "friends."

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us 

In article <caB4e.1071$lP1.675@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Ike" <accordiondoc DeleteThis @mindspring.com> writes:
>
> "Cary Kittrell" <cary DeleteThis @afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
> news:d2uho7$jr3$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> > ...these young theist-ettes won't let me be...
> >
> >
> > Atheists roll their eyes, and properly so, at the recent trend
> > among some -- and I emphasize "some" -- among some Christians to
> > portray Christians in America as pitiable beleagured victims of
> > oppression and persecution. Never mind that like-minded
> > politicians are firmly in control of the government, never mind
> > that they have so large a majority that no admitted atheist could
> > ever win a major election, never mind tax breaks and legislative
> > special rights such as Least Compelling Interest, never mind
> > uncounted tens of thousands of freely flourishing churches, never
> > mind a culture that will reflexively call for unified prayers to
> > God whenever He commits an Act of Himself -- never mind that
> > conservative Christians today have a lock on the levers of power
> > that Boss Tweed would have admired -- they're still poor, poor
> > pitiful victims.
> >
> > Well, that was fun, and I feel MUCH better now -- but before
> > anyone launches a rant: that wasn't what I'd like some feedback
> > on. Quite the opposite: I see not infrequent, and rather like-
> > sounding claims of victimhood on the part of atheists.
> >
> > Now admittedly atheists are the runt of the demographic litter in
> > this country, but nonetheless I personally cannot recall having
> > been subjected to anything I could describe as more than mildly
> > annoying on account of to my atheism. And I certainly have
> > suffered any dark-of-the-night Southern-gothic incidents.
> >
> > But maybe I'm atypical? I've spent most of my life in academia,
> > and even when I was in industry I was surrounded by very bright
> > people, and in my experience there tends to be a high correlation
> > between intelligence and tolerance. So maybe I've simply led a
> > sheltered and (you should pardon the word) blessed existence?
> >
> > I'd like some feedback from other atheists on what they see as
> > oppression -- or lack thereof -- in this country.
> >
> > Personal anecdotes are MUCH preferred over impersonal
> > observations such as "No atheist could get elected president".
> > I would like to hear how hard -- or easy -- it's been for you
> > personally to be an atheist.
> >
> >
> > -- cary
> >
> There's plenty of oppression that you would never notice in your academic
> ivory tower. I won't go into it now however, because it's too personal. I
> would have to at least collect some of my thoughts, which are very valuable
> to collectors because of their rarity.
>

Well, if you do decide to spill some gems, I'm all ears (except for
the gonad bits, of course)


-- cary
 >> Stay informed about: Poor, poor pitiful us