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Dan Clore

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 14



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:45 am
Post subject: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time
Archived from groups: sci>skeptic, others (more info?)

http://startribune.com
Pseudoscience would waste teaching time
by Paul Z. Myers
Published April 24, 2005

Intelligent design (ID) has failed to meet even the minimal
standards of evidence and scholarship we should expect of
the science we teach our children. Teaching it steals time
from more vital subjects in which our kids should be grounded.

Science is a conservative process. Most college-level
introductory textbooks contain only material that has stood
the test of time and has been confirmed independently.

ID proponents have not only failed to provide any evidence
for their thesis, they aren't even trying. There are no labs
doing research on this subject; all the papers the Discovery
Institute has tried to publish are exercises in spin, in
which they try to distort biology researchers' work to fit
their preconceptions.

With no established body of results, no current work and no
promising prospects for future research, why should ID be
supported? It's a dead end. It is absurd to propose that our
kids learn about a subject that no legitimate scientists are
pursuing and that has no utility.

With no track record to earn the respect of scientists and
educators, ID is attempting to circumvent the accepted
standards of testing and validation to sneak into our
schoolrooms -- it's cheating.

It takes a great deal of hard work and persistence and time
and evidence to establish a scientific idea, work that
should not be shirked by taking the easy route and asking
the government to legislate a concept into the schoolrooms.

Yet this is exactly the strategy ID proponents are
following: spreading propaganda to persuade school boards
and state education departments to insert the ideological
dogma of ID into classrooms.

Contrast ID with how legitimate scientific work gets into
the curriculum. There is an active ferment of new ideas, new
experiments, and new evidence constantly bubbling up in the
scientific literature. Many controversies work themselves
out in the pages of Nature or Science or other journals, and
prompt hypothesis testing and the gathering of new evidence.

If an idea is well-supported by the evidence, it gains wider
currency within the scientific community, and eventually
works its way into the science textbooks. Biology books are
written by biologists, not by the hodge-podge of lawyers,
philosophers, theologians, rhetoricians and rare scientists
willing to abandon scientific principles found in the ID
movement.

Textbook content should accurately reflect the general
opinion of the scientists who do real work in a field.

And what is the state of modern evolutionary biology?
Thriving, growing and more productive than ever. In
paleontology within the last year, we've had the amazing
discoveries of Homo floresiensis, the Indonesian "hobbit,"
and remarkable finds from Dmanisi, Georgia.

The human genome project, and genome projects analyzing
other organisms, has been yielding research dividends. We
are beginning to tease apart the genetic differences that
make human brains different from those of chimpanzees.

Molecular studies of protists are revealing the roots of
multicellularity. We study oncogenes, genes that when
damaged can cause cancers in humans. Epidemiologists study
looming disease threats, such as bird flu and the Marburg
virus, using evolutionary principles.

My own discipline of developmental biology has been
revolutionized in the last few decades as we've embraced
evolution more fully than before; new papers in the rapidly
growing field of evo-devo, or evolutionary developmental
biology, pile up on my desk faster than I can read them.

This is a genuinely exciting time to be studying biology.
When students ask me about the hot fields that promise great
careers, I steer them toward evo-devo (and developmental
biology in general), bioinformatics, proteomics and
genomics, all fields in which knowledge of evolution is
indispensable.

Note that I do not and cannot recommend anything to do with
ID, whose proponents spend their time lobbying school
boards, producing nothing new, and with no promise of new
ideas for the future.

I want my incoming students to be well versed in the
fundamentals of biology, which includes evolution but not
the pseudoscience of ID, so that we can move to the real
excitement of modern biology . . . which is almost entirely
informed by the concepts of evolution.

Paul Z. Myers is an associate professor of biology at the
University of Minnesota-Morris. He also operates a
science-oriented blog, http://pharyngula.org

--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"

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Conspiracy of Doves

External


Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?

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Ron O

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:11 am
Post subject: Re: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
> Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?


A better question is "Do creationists have effective counters to these
types of arguments?"

They may respond, but they can't counter.

At this time the only creationists that want to teach ID in the public
schools are ignorant, incompetent, and/or dishonest. The Wedgies that
started the "teach alternatives" ID/creationist scam in the 1990's like
Dembski and Meyers have dropped that scam and replaced it with the
"teach the controversy" scam. Even guys like Senator Santorum have
gotten the message and have switched scams. It is only the guys that
are going off the old ID propaganda that still advocate teaching it.

The Wedgies are between a rock and a hard place because they still need
the ID scam to make it look like the teach the controversy scam is
legitimate. As long as most people don't know that there isn't any ID
in the new scam they can support it, but when they find out that there
isn't any ID/creationism in the new scam they have to decide whether
they should dishonestly continue their support or drop it. Most
creationists are able to determine that if there is no ID/creationism
in the teach the controversy scam that it is only an obfuscation scam.
If your alternative isn't part of the controversy, why would you want
to teach the controversy?

As long as the Wedgies keep their supporters in the dark they can count
on their support. Why do you think that the Wedgies never put up
exactly what they want to teach so that the rubes can evaluate it?
Where is the ID lesson plan? Why haven't the Wedgies put forward their
own "teach the controversy" lesson plan? You'd think that Wells,
Meyers and Dembski could have managed to put enough neurons together to
write up a lesson plan by now, so where is it? The tragic truth is
that the vast majority of their creationist supporters do not know what
can be taught, and the Wedgies like it that way. Perpetuation of
ignorance isn't education.

Ron Okimoto
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bg12345

External


Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 2



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Dan Clore wrote:
> http://startribune.com
> Pseudoscience would waste teaching time
> by Paul Z. Myers
> Published April 24, 2005
>
> Intelligent design (ID) has failed to meet even the minimal
> standards of evidence and scholarship we should expect of
> the science we teach our children. Teaching it steals time
> from more vital subjects in which our kids should be grounded.

On Myers' blog, <http://pharyngula.org>, this post appears:

Write the Strib!

By the way, the Star Tribune has a request on their
op-ex page:

An invitation to readers on ID/evolution.
We're interested in your thoughts on intelligent design,
evolution, and their proper places in school curricula.
Write us an e-mail of no more than 150 words and send it
to opinion.DeleteThis@startribune.com, with the word "evolution" in
the subject line. Be sure to include your name, address
and telephone number so we can contact you if we decide
to publish your response. Please reply by Monday, May 2.

Let's flood the Strib with pro-evolution letters!

Sounds like a good idea to me.


Bob Dog

-----

Divine retribution is an idol threat.
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wmech

External


Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Creation Science" is NOT science but religious beliefs.
It is not based on any scientific evidence or investigation.
It is totally founded on "faith".

Creation Science does not belong in our public school curriculum. It should
remain where it belongs; in churches.

--
Bill
"Dan Clore" <clore.TakeThisOut@columbia-center.org> wrote in message
news:3d6nudF6tb0gnU1@individual.net...
> http://startribune.com
> Pseudoscience would waste teaching time
> by Paul Z. Myers
> Published April 24, 2005
>
> Intelligent design (ID) has failed to meet even the minimal
> standards of evidence and scholarship we should expect of
> the science we teach our children. Teaching it steals time
> from more vital subjects in which our kids should be grounded.
>
> Science is a conservative process. Most college-level
> introductory textbooks contain only material that has stood
> the test of time and has been confirmed independently.
>
> ID proponents have not only failed to provide any evidence
> for their thesis, they aren't even trying. There are no labs
> doing research on this subject; all the papers the Discovery
> Institute has tried to publish are exercises in spin, in
> which they try to distort biology researchers' work to fit
> their preconceptions.
>
> With no established body of results, no current work and no
> promising prospects for future research, why should ID be
> supported? It's a dead end. It is absurd to propose that our
> kids learn about a subject that no legitimate scientists are
> pursuing and that has no utility.
>
> With no track record to earn the respect of scientists and
> educators, ID is attempting to circumvent the accepted
> standards of testing and validation to sneak into our
> schoolrooms -- it's cheating.
>
> It takes a great deal of hard work and persistence and time
> and evidence to establish a scientific idea, work that
> should not be shirked by taking the easy route and asking
> the government to legislate a concept into the schoolrooms.
>
> Yet this is exactly the strategy ID proponents are
> following: spreading propaganda to persuade school boards
> and state education departments to insert the ideological
> dogma of ID into classrooms.
>
> Contrast ID with how legitimate scientific work gets into
> the curriculum. There is an active ferment of new ideas, new
> experiments, and new evidence constantly bubbling up in the
> scientific literature. Many controversies work themselves
> out in the pages of Nature or Science or other journals, and
> prompt hypothesis testing and the gathering of new evidence.
>
> If an idea is well-supported by the evidence, it gains wider
> currency within the scientific community, and eventually
> works its way into the science textbooks. Biology books are
> written by biologists, not by the hodge-podge of lawyers,
> philosophers, theologians, rhetoricians and rare scientists
> willing to abandon scientific principles found in the ID
> movement.
>
> Textbook content should accurately reflect the general
> opinion of the scientists who do real work in a field.
>
> And what is the state of modern evolutionary biology?
> Thriving, growing and more productive than ever. In
> paleontology within the last year, we've had the amazing
> discoveries of Homo floresiensis, the Indonesian "hobbit,"
> and remarkable finds from Dmanisi, Georgia.
>
> The human genome project, and genome projects analyzing
> other organisms, has been yielding research dividends. We
> are beginning to tease apart the genetic differences that
> make human brains different from those of chimpanzees.
>
> Molecular studies of protists are revealing the roots of
> multicellularity. We study oncogenes, genes that when
> damaged can cause cancers in humans. Epidemiologists study
> looming disease threats, such as bird flu and the Marburg
> virus, using evolutionary principles.
>
> My own discipline of developmental biology has been
> revolutionized in the last few decades as we've embraced
> evolution more fully than before; new papers in the rapidly
> growing field of evo-devo, or evolutionary developmental
> biology, pile up on my desk faster than I can read them.
>
> This is a genuinely exciting time to be studying biology.
> When students ask me about the hot fields that promise great
> careers, I steer them toward evo-devo (and developmental
> biology in general), bioinformatics, proteomics and
> genomics, all fields in which knowledge of evolution is
> indispensable.
>
> Note that I do not and cannot recommend anything to do with
> ID, whose proponents spend their time lobbying school
> boards, producing nothing new, and with no promise of new
> ideas for the future.
>
> I want my incoming students to be well versed in the
> fundamentals of biology, which includes evolution but not
> the pseudoscience of ID, so that we can move to the real
> excitement of modern biology . . . which is almost entirely
> informed by the concepts of evolution.
>
> Paul Z. Myers is an associate professor of biology at the
> University of Minnesota-Morris. He also operates a
> science-oriented blog, http://pharyngula.org
>
> --
> Dan Clore
>
> My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
> Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
> News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
>
> Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
> immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
> -- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
>
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Lester Long

External


Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 8



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:36 pm
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114517477.212860.268840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?

All the creationists in sci.skeptic, talk.origins, alt.education, and
alt.atheism do.

Regards,
Lester
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wizofaus

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Pseudoscience Would Waste Teaching Time [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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wmech wrote:
> "Creation Science" is NOT science but religious beliefs.
> It is not based on any scientific evidence or investigation.
> It is totally founded on "faith".
>
> Creation Science does not belong in our public school curriculum. It
should
> remain where it belongs; in churches.
>
And few of them, at that. I would think few respectable churches would
be at all interested in promoting something so anathema to mankind's
chances of improving himself, and that makes such a mockery of the
awe-inspiring vastness and complexity of all "creation" as genuine
scientific research has uncovered it to be.

Having said that, I do feel that what *does* belong in public school
curriculum, and is sadly lacking currently, is time devoted to
explaining and understanding what science *is* and how it works - if
the critical thinking skills and techniques necessary to separate
science from pseudoscience were part of every student's education it
might just give us a public less prone to falling under the sway of
pseudoscientific twaddle, whether it be astrology, paranormal
phenomena, "create science" or a thousand other facets of this
pernicious epidemic.
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bja

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:24 pm
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Have creationist ever figured out who designed the designer?
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Brian Henderson

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 2



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:28 pm
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On 26 Apr 2005 05:11:17 -0700, "Conspiracy of Doves"
<mark_dp73.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?

Not really, at least not intelligently. They don't care, all they
want to do is push their religion. Screw the consequences.
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mikelist

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Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:42 am
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By all means, let's consider every iteration of creationism, fom the
standpoint of every possible religion. No? Only the Biblically inspired
versions then, next consider every iteration of intelligent design, and
end up with "of course some people have dug up some old bones and junk,
and they claim it proves that our ancestors were not always humans".

Waste of time? the hell you say.
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Clayton Reveals "I Had El

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Since: Apr 27, 2005
Posts: 2



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:26 pm
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114517477.212860.268840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?
>
Oh they'll fling a few lies and non-sequitors and not address any subject or
provide any evidence but they will claim to have soundly defeated the
"evolutionists" anyway!
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AC

External


Since: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:26 pm
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:26:22 +1000,
Clayton Reveals "I Had Elvis's Baby"...Page 7 <cjfat.RemoveThis@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
>
> "Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1114517477.212860.268840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?
>>
> Oh they'll fling a few lies and non-sequitors and not address any subject or
> provide any evidence but they will claim to have soundly defeated the
> "evolutionists" anyway!

Actually I kind of like McNameless's approach. "If you don't believe
exactly as I believe, you're going to pay big time!" It's got the Olde Time
Religion feel to it.

--
mightymartianca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com
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stoney

External


Since: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 251



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:52 pm
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:28:13 GMT, Brian Henderson
<BrianL.Henderson DeleteThis @NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:

>On 26 Apr 2005 05:11:17 -0700, "Conspiracy of Doves"
><mark_dp73 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?
>
>Not really, at least not intelligently. They don't care, all they
>want to do is push their religion.

Their superstition.

>Screw the consequences.

Unless they're directly affected by it, then they get upset.


--

Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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stoney

External


Since: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 251



(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:53 pm
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On 26 Apr 2005 23:46:00 GMT, AC <mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:26:22 +1000,
>Clayton Reveals "I Had Elvis's Baby"...Page 7 <cjfat RemoveThis @SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1114517477.212860.268840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>> Do creationists ever respond to posts like this?
>>>
>> Oh they'll fling a few lies and non-sequitors and not address any subject or
>> provide any evidence but they will claim to have soundly defeated the
>> "evolutionists" anyway!
>
>Actually I kind of like McNameless's approach. "If you don't believe
>exactly as I believe, you're going to pay big time!" It's got the Olde Time
>Religion feel to it.

What they don't dare consider is; "dotting all the i's and crossing
their t's" and still being thrown into Hel.


--

Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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stoney

External


Since: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 251



(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:21 pm
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On 26 Apr 2005 19:24:09 -0700, bja.RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Have creationist ever figured out who designed the designer?

You've gotta be kidding. Cretinists can't even wipe their arses
without assistance.


--

Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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