Our College Selection Update

Mike Tamada wrote in message ...
>This statement isn't quite making sense; NSF Fellowships are never
>used at liberal arts colleges, it's not an "option" at all. Because
>they are only given to graduate students who are pursuing PhDs. By
>definition, they are only going to be used at doctoral institutions.

I'll try again.

>The question is: which students receive these fellowships? Students
>who graduated from liberal arts colleges, or who graduated from large
>schools?

My question was: who applies for these fellowships? And what kind of
support do they get during the application process from their colleges?

For instance...I really don't want to pick on Amherst!...but look at:

http://www.amherst.edu/~careers/fellowscholar.html

"Function of the Committee on Student Fellowships
....
The Committee also helps nominees in their final applications and advises
them on preparing for the next level of evaluation by committees of the
particular foundations."

Good for them. But aren't we now evaluating the support within the
institution for fellowship applications as much as the education the
students received, or the quality of the applicants?

In contrast, UCLA has great data bases, but you may be on your own when
preparing the application, or have to drum up your own reviewers...in any
event, I think it's fair to say that UCLA's efforts are more directed
towards obtaining and granting fellowships for their own undergrads to
attend UCLA grad schools, rather than trying to support applicants who are
planning to go elsewhere.

>Are you saying that UCLA undergrads get automatic admission into NPI,
>and can get a PhD in, say, neuroscience? That'd be extremely unusual,
>unheard of in my experience -- every PhD program that I've heard of
>requires students to apply, UCLA alum and Williams College alum alike.

No, of course not. But an applicant with research experience in the lab is
a known quantity...which helps, unless there was an unfortunate situation
involving the Fire Department. )

<snip>
>If you're talking about undergrad research positions, then yes one can
>walk across the street and do undergrad research at NPI. But students
>also do undergrad research at liberal arts colleges.

Yes. But it's not directly comparable across the board.

>> Or, you could go to an elite liberal arts college, graduate, than sweat
out
>> an application to some of those large, public research universities that
you
>> spurned four years earlier because they were too large and - dare I say
it -
>> too public. Since one can't get a PhD in a scientific field at many
(most?)
>> top liberal arts colleges.
>
>And one can't get a PhD at a research university either -- until one
>applies and gets admitted into a doctoral program (hopefully with
>support such as an NSF award). Unless UCLA has some program that I
>don't know about, which automatically accepts UCLA undergrads into a
>PhD program, your daughter in order to get a PhD in neuroscience from
>UCLA will have to apply and sweat out an application, just as the
>Williams College alum has to.

No question about the need for an application. But, my daughter had a
personal acquaintance from Amherst who had a difficult time getting accepted
to UCLA - it took more than one try. Our guess is that he would have been
much more successful had he been a UCLA undergrad. And my daughter felt
that his preparation from that school was not as good as it would have been
from UCLA.

At this juncture...we have our personal experience, and our opinion is that
a liberal arts college is not a good choice for someone who plans on a
science major. Obviously, you have a different opinion. I would be
interested in seeing the whole sample set for 1996 through 2003 - maybe I
can learn something.

But I cringe at the blithely given advice to go to an LAC because they have
better chances of getting in to x graduate school. There are examples where
this seems to be true - Amherst for Harvard Law, for example - but I think
it's overdone at best, and potentially very bad advice for Sarath, as she's
looking at a challenging finance situation even before adding in the cost of
an LAC.

Enough.

Hank Murphy
speaking only for myself
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

Re: Pre-med - Although it is counterintuitive, if your daughter is
really serious about pre-med, she might be better off in the less
prestigious college, where the grade competition would favor your
daughter. Med school admissions committees are more interested in
overall GPA and science GPA than the school itself. The more selective
the college, the more competition she will face in her pre-med science
courses. If she were to pick a school like UConn (just for example) or
any second or third tier college, the students in her Physics, Bio,
Calculus, Orgo I and II classes would not be as talented or motivated,
and it should be easier for her to be at the top of the class. A 4.0
from Kutztown will get her admissions to Johns Hopkins or even Harvard
med school, quicker than a 3.0 from Harvard undergrad. Of course, she
would not be surrounded by the same level of daily intellectual
stimulation, but there are trade offs in everything.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

but I seriously
> question whether any of the schools on your list would provide a better
> education than UCLA. (We investigated Cornell...great school...ultimately
> out of our budget.) And I really wonder if the cost difference over UConn
> is worth it at the undergraduate level, given that post-grad work is in her
> plans.
> Hank Murphy
> speaking only for myself

I tend to agree with Hank on this. A visit is UConn is in order. Meet
some students, then decide. Just my opinion.

Sal
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

ppeerreeaa RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Sarath Perera) wrote in message news:<77ea5433.0404060450.14e0813e RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
> Sometime ago, when our daughter was applying for colleges
> I discussed her choices here. Now she has applied and
> accepted by few. I thought of sharing news with you all.
>
> Thank you all for help you extended to us during this
> stressful time.
>
> Sarath.

Sarath,

Thanks for the update. Have you visited UConn and talked to students?
I would not rule it out unless you visit and find it lacking. Good
luck with the decision. I'd love to know what you all decide. But
don't post if you aren't comfortable.

Sal
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

I met a guy who majored in Chem Engineering, found that the job market
was pretty soft, and went to med school instead. He was doing his
residency, and wistfully wondering what it would have been like to
get a few years of experince in engineering. Which was sort of funny
since at work we fantasize about what it would be like to be a doctor,
and make 10 times what engineers make.

With those kinds of statistics, a less prestigious state school would
probably offer a free ride for tuition, and probably have honors
programs too. To put the cash in perspective, for someone who's a
middle class schmuck like me, you could buy a new $20,000 car every
year, and then throw it away after 12 months... though the lure of
an Ivy League college sure is tempting.


thc wrote:
> Re: Pre-med - Although it is counterintuitive, if your daughter is
> really serious about pre-med, she might be better off in the less
> prestigious college, where the grade competition would favor your
> daughter. Med school admissions committees are more interested in
> overall GPA and science GPA than the school itself. The more selective
> the college, the more competition she will face in her pre-med science
> courses. If she were to pick a school like UConn (just for example) or
> any second or third tier college, the students in her Physics, Bio,
> Calculus, Orgo I and II classes would not be as talented or motivated,
> and it should be easier for her to be at the top of the class. A 4.0
> from Kutztown will get her admissions to Johns Hopkins or even Harvard
> med school, quicker than a 3.0 from Harvard undergrad. Of course, she
> would not be surrounded by the same level of daily intellectual
> stimulation, but there are trade offs in everything.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

John K <jpk31415.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<A4-dnUvmgreWM-fdRVn-iQ.RemoveThis@adelphia.com>...
> I met a guy who majored in Chem Engineering, found that the job market
> was pretty soft, and went to med school instead. He was doing his
> residency, and wistfully wondering what it would have been like to
> get a few years of experince in engineering. Which was sort of funny
> since at work we fantasize about what it would be like to be a doctor,
> and make 10 times what engineers make.
>
> With those kinds of statistics, a less prestigious state school would
> probably offer a free ride for tuition, and probably have honors
> programs too. To put the cash in perspective, for someone who's a
> middle class schmuck like me, you could buy a new $20,000 car every
> year, and then throw it away after 12 months... though the lure of
> an Ivy League college sure is tempting.

John,

Thanks for the response.

That $20,000 car per year sounds nice. Especially considering one
of those will replace '94 Geo Prism I drive to work.

She has not madeup her mind about premed. (Says if premed prevents
her from participating in other activities, she will not do premed.)
So that can change. It is the interlectual stimulation that we are
looking for most. I think chances are higher that she will get
a high dose of it at a school where all her friends are of high
calibre. I have also noticed that she works well when challenged.

Sarath.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

You have gotta be joking. Here is an advice I gave a young mom last month:

Biotech, Food, Chemical, pharmaceutical and
environmental are all hiring Chem Engrs.

It is hot now but can't say in 5-6 years.


John K <jpk31415 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<A4-dnUvmgreWM-fdRVn-iQ DeleteThis @adelphia.com>...
> I met a guy who majored in Chem Engineering, found that the job market
> was pretty soft, and went to med school instead. He was doing his
> residency, and wistfully wondering what it would have been like to
> get a few years of experince in engineering. Which was sort of funny
> since at work we fantasize about what it would be like to be a doctor,
> and make 10 times what engineers make.
>
> With those kinds of statistics, a less prestigious state school would
> probably offer a free ride for tuition, and probably have honors
> programs too. To put the cash in perspective, for someone who's a
> middle class schmuck like me, you could buy a new $20,000 car every
> year, and then throw it away after 12 months... though the lure of
> an Ivy League college sure is tempting.
>
>
> thc wrote:
> > Re: Pre-med - Although it is counterintuitive, if your daughter is
> > really serious about pre-med, she might be better off in the less
> > prestigious college, where the grade competition would favor your
> > daughter. Med school admissions committees are more interested in
> > overall GPA and science GPA than the school itself. The more selective
> > the college, the more competition she will face in her pre-med science
> > courses. If she were to pick a school like UConn (just for example) or
> > any second or third tier college, the students in her Physics, Bio,
> > Calculus, Orgo I and II classes would not be as talented or motivated,
> > and it should be easier for her to be at the top of the class. A 4.0
> > from Kutztown will get her admissions to Johns Hopkins or even Harvard
> > med school, quicker than a 3.0 from Harvard undergrad. Of course, she
> > would not be surrounded by the same level of daily intellectual
> > stimulation, but there are trade offs in everything.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

On 12 Apr 2004 10:11:09 -0700, ppeerreeaa.RemoveThis@yahoo.com (Sarath Perera)
wrote:

>She has not madeup her mind about premed. (Says if premed prevents
>her from participating in other activities, she will not do premed.)
>So that can change. It is the interlectual stimulation that we are
>looking for most. I think chances are higher that she will get
>a high dose of it at a school where all her friends are of high
>calibre. I have also noticed that she works well when challenged.

My instincts are with you on this. College is not just -- or doesn't
have to be just -- a preprofessional training ground. It's a life
experience. If what she wants out of the next four years, totally
aside from the question of what she's going to do after that, is a
vibrant, active intellectual environment where the students are
close-knit and it revolves around playing with ideas and having fun
with what their minds can do, then she needs a school where that kind
of atmosphere is in the air. No matter how good a school is at
training her for medical school, a place whose basic social life
centers around basketball and drinking parties is going to be
different from a school whose basic social life centers around
coffeehouse arguments about Descartes and Thucydides. I went to one of
the great pure liberal arts schools in the country, the undergraduate
college at the University of Chicago, and it was more sheer fun for
someone who loves ideas and smart people and playing with ideas in a
crowd of smart people than anything else I've ever experienced. If
your daughter wants that, she should grab it now; lots of people go to
med school from the liberal arts colleges, including without premed
majors. My stepmother went to med school on a Greek Archaeology major
from Radcliffe. If you've taken a few of the key science classes they
don't care; some of them actually thik well-rounded minds make better
doctors -- and most of the best doctors I know agree.

Naomi
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

LACs produce a lot of good scientists.

http://www.rescorp.org/SourceBook/section_2.pdf
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

I need to amend my previous response. The school in question was not
Amherst - it was another very well known LAC, usually mentioned in the same
paragraph, if not the same sentence, when discussing LACs. I won't name it
because I don't want to disrespect any of these schools, which are great
choices in many other regards. In retrospect, I should not have picked on
Amherst, either.

The statement about LACs not being good preparation for a scientific field
is still my strongly held opinion.

Hank Murphy
speaking only for myself
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

Not really. Some years these majors run hot and cold.
In the long run, ChemE degrees are probably pretty good.
Right now EEs are getting hit with high levels of
unemployment (6% or so) because of outsourcing to
India and China. This particular situation occurred
at least 6 years ago... maybe the guy didn't feel like
leaving town or something.

octo wrote:
> You have gotta be joking. Here is an advice I gave a young mom last month:
>
> Biotech, Food, Chemical, pharmaceutical and
> environmental are all hiring Chem Engrs.
>
> It is hot now but can't say in 5-6 years.
>
>
> John K <jpk31415.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<A4-dnUvmgreWM-fdRVn-iQ.RemoveThis@adelphia.com>...
>
>>I met a guy who majored in Chem Engineering, found that the job market
>>was pretty soft, and went to med school instead. He was doing his
>>residency, and wistfully wondering what it would have been like to
>>get a few years of experince in engineering. Which was sort of funny
>>since at work we fantasize about what it would be like to be a doctor,
>>and make 10 times what engineers make.
>>
>>With those kinds of statistics, a less prestigious state school would
>>probably offer a free ride for tuition, and probably have honors
>>programs too. To put the cash in perspective, for someone who's a
>>middle class schmuck like me, you could buy a new $20,000 car every
>>year, and then throw it away after 12 months... though the lure of
>>an Ivy League college sure is tempting.
>>
>>
>>thc wrote:
>>
>>>Re: Pre-med - Although it is counterintuitive, if your daughter is
>>>really serious about pre-med, she might be better off in the less
>>>prestigious college, where the grade competition would favor your
>>>daughter. Med school admissions committees are more interested in
>>>overall GPA and science GPA than the school itself. The more selective
>>>the college, the more competition she will face in her pre-med science
>>>courses. If she were to pick a school like UConn (just for example) or
>>>any second or third tier college, the students in her Physics, Bio,
>>>Calculus, Orgo I and II classes would not be as talented or motivated,
>>>and it should be easier for her to be at the top of the class. A 4.0
>>>from Kutztown will get her admissions to Johns Hopkins or even Harvard
>>>med school, quicker than a 3.0 from Harvard undergrad. Of course, she
>>>would not be surrounded by the same level of daily intellectual
>>>stimulation, but there are trade offs in everything.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

"Naomi Rivkis" <nrivkis.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> My instincts are with you on this. College is not just -- or doesn't
> have to be just -- a preprofessional training ground. It's a life
> experience. If what she wants out of the next four years, totally

Life experience is fine, but the preprofessional or professional training
ground is almost a necessity for most, with the possible exception of the
obscenely affluent and/or those studying for an MRS or MR degree.

This past weekend (Hol Hamoed Pesach / Good Friday - Easter) I spent at a
very large Ivy where I met an alumnus in his late 20's, with a Bachelor's in
History and little hope of finding a job.

> coffeehouse arguments about Descartes and Thucydides. I went to one of
> the great pure liberal arts schools in the country, the undergraduate

It's nice to discuss Descartes and Thucydides, but after 4 years you've got
to be able to put a brisket or some bacon on the table.

> majors. My stepmother went to med school on a Greek Archaeology major
> from Radcliffe. If you've taken a few of the key science classes they

Is your stepmother a practicing doctor?

My ENT went to Cooper Union as an undergrad (admitted to MIT, but he could
not afford it) and I don't think he is a bad doctor because of his
engineering undergrad degree. But he knew early on that he had to put the
brisket/bacon on the table.

Hope you had a nice Pesach, with or without the brisket.

Abe
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update 

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 21:26:36 -0400, "Abe Kohen"
<akohen RemoveThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:

>
>"Naomi Rivkis" <nrivkis RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>> My instincts are with you on this. College is not just -- or doesn't
>> have to be just -- a preprofessional training ground. It's a life
>> experience. If what she wants out of the next four years, totally
>
>Life experience is fine, but the preprofessional or professional training
>ground is almost a necessity for most, with the possible exception of the
>obscenely affluent and/or those studying for an MRS or MR degree.

Er... the acceptance rate for my undergradute school into med and law
schools was obscenely high. It didn't seem to bother them that it was
a liberal arts school.

I suspect Swarthmore would do just fine.

>This past weekend (Hol Hamoed Pesach / Good Friday - Easter) I spent at a
>very large Ivy where I met an alumnus in his late 20's, with a Bachelor's in
>History and little hope of finding a job.

If what you want is a job straight out of college, that can be
difficult, but this girl was talking about medical school. The liberal
arts schools send people to med school just fine, and they don't have
to be premed majors so long as they have the basic undergraduate
science courses.

It's also perfectly possible to have a liberal arts major while
learning job skills through electives and work experience. My two best
friends from college majored in psychology and history of science,
respectively; they're both highly sought-after and highly paid
computer programmers.

>> coffeehouse arguments about Descartes and Thucydides. I went to one of
>> the great pure liberal arts schools in the country, the undergraduate
>
>It's nice to discuss Descartes and Thucydides, but after 4 years you've got
>to be able to put a brisket or some bacon on the table.

Well, eventually you do, though if you're planning on med school
anyway it's not going to be after your undergraduate four years
regardless. But why bother with a four-year degree in the first place
if that's all you're concerned about? A one-year technical certificate
will get you paid just as well in the right fields. Of course it may
not be what you enjoy doing, but what does that matter so long as it's
a job?

Some of us want to put bacon on the table *and* do something we like.
Both for our undergraduate years and beyond. With the kind of
credentials this girl was going in with, I think she'll have the
opportunity to do both at once; I'd hate to see her throw it away out
of fear.

>> majors. My stepmother went to med school on a Greek Archaeology major
>> from Radcliffe. If you've taken a few of the key science classes they
>
>Is your stepmother a practicing doctor?

Yes.

>My ENT went to Cooper Union as an undergrad (admitted to MIT, but he could
>not afford it) and I don't think he is a bad doctor because of his
>engineering undergrad degree. But he knew early on that he had to put the
>brisket/bacon on the table.

My stepmother went to med school after a divorce and a few years of
teaching following her undergraduate degree. I think it's safe to say
she knew she had to make a living. I don't think she knew what she
wanted to do professionally when she chose her college major; her
family encouraged her to follow her passions and she'd find something
to do with her drive and intelligence that would support her. She did.
Meantime, she learned a lot about Greek archaeology.

My undergraduate school does not *permit* students to declare a major
before they matriculate; in fact it doesn't permit them to declare a
major in any kind of useful fashion till after their second year. You
can tell them what you want to study before that and they write it
down on a form with a bored look on their faces and wonder how many
times you'll change it before you graduate. Most of us did change it,
and the school considered that a sign of success -- it was opening up
our horizons and getting us interested in things we hadn't known
enough about to love when we entered the school. I didn't know what I
wanted to do for the rest of my life when I was seventeen, and I think
most people don't -- and even those who do would be both happier and
better educated if they study other subjects too, before they settle
down to a narrow field for the rest of their lives.

>Hope you had a nice Pesach, with or without the brisket.

We went to a pair of vegetarian seders and had a lovely time. The baby
was fairly well-behaved and much admired.

Naomi

>Abe
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection Update