Our College Selection

Sarath Perera wrote in message
...

It sounds like both you and she have done good work, certainly a lot more
research than many others! Please excuse the long post which follows.

Some notes, off the top of my head, and remember that internet advice from
someone who doesn't know your child may not be accurate!

>First her stats.
>Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)

This is my first concern. One of the common problems among freshmen is the
adjustment from being the best and brightest to being just another good
student who now has to prove themselves. This is an unexpected ego blow for
many. I'm guessing your HS total enrollment is about 600...this is not
preparation for a great large college IMHO because everybody knows her there
at this point.

Another concern is that great students in HS are sometimes that way because
of the support structure and reinforcement from parents, neighbors/friends,
and extended family. This isn't something that's measured on a test. You
know your daughter a little better than I do ) - how much of her drive is
internal and how much is from her environment?

>SAT I: 800V, 700M
>SAT II: 740 English, 670 Chemistry, 620 math (retaking math on Dec 6)

Is the math the 1C or 2C?

The negative seems to be that her scores don't match the typical poor
verbal, strong math skills of most science majors.

>National Merit Semifinalist
>ECs. President: Amenesty International club (2 years)
> Co-president: Future Buisness leaders
> Member of model UN for 4 years.
> Varsity Tennis player.
> and some more
>
>She interested in NeuroScience, Psychology, Boilogy, Philosopy, PreMed.
>She also wants to get involved in human rights issues
>and community service.

With all due respect...from this list, it looks to me like she does not know
what she wants to do.

If Neuro is first on her list, I'd add UCLA to the list. However, that's
possibly the worst case in terms of a huge bureaucracy far from home.
And...if she majors in Neuro, Premed, and possibly Bio in a good school, she
will probably not have time for much involvement outside her classes. For
Premed, service in a hospital or clinic is probably preferable, but this
does depend greatly on the discretion of the admissions committee and
interviewer, so never mind.

>We have not seperated colleges as reach, match, safety; but
>we tried to list in hardest to easiest order. We have not visited
>some colleges here. But she will stay at least one night in the
>college before the final acceptance.

This is a great plan. I'll comment on a few colleges from your extensive
list:

>2. Swarthmore.
> Visited and had an interview. Little concerned
> about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation.

To be honest, I'd be more concerned about grade inflation, especially for a
science major. It will come home to roost someday. And my opinion is that
a liberal arts school is not the best preparation for post-graduate work in
a science major...others may differ, and there are certainly examples to the
contrary, but the grinder of large, tough classes where the student has to
sink or swim is a better preparation than a warm, nurturing environment.
Sometimes boot camp is better than charm school. These comments are not
just for Swat, but for all the fine liberal arts colleges you've listed.
Not deficient schools by any means - but maybe not the best starting point
for where she thinks she wants to go.

>3. Yale.
> She probably has a better chance at Yale than above two,
> because Yale usually admits one student from her high school.
> This is her dream school (too close to home is the only negative).
> Currently taking Caculus II at Yale.

This was my number one among your choices. You don't mention how far away
it is, but if she is living on campus, she might as well be in New
Mexico...she can come home when she wants to, she can stay independent if
she wants, and you are close enough to be there if something happens.
(That's been our experience with two at UCLA - YMMV. About an hour away for
us, less on weekends.) And she knows the campus. Plus it's an outstanding
university.

Has she done an interview?

>5. Cornell.
> Attended the open house on Agriculture school, and decided to
> apply to Arts and Science. Likes the school, says little too
> big for her taste though. Did not like Agriculture school
> because it is too science oriented.

My second choice among your selections. Less grade inflation from what I've
heard. Several top-notch departments. Further from home and a bit more
difficult for travel - fly to Binghampton or Schenechtady, rent a car. (I
may have the geography wrong, but it's probably 4-6 hours travel.) Large
school farther away from home is the main negative point I can see.

>9. University of Connecticut.
> Already applied (EA) because she is applying for their Nutmeg
> scholarship. Nutmeg is very competitive and she has less
> than 50% chance. The scholarship pays from all expenses,
> and provides many academic perks. A standard tution
> scholarship almost certain.

Yes.

>Other universities considered/visited (some still possible)
>
>1. Harvard.
> Visited. Too much of a reach. Does not like too competitive
> reputation. Not known for caring undergraduates. Likes
> liberal atmosphere and Cambridge.

Worth a try IMHO. Ditto Princeton, although I'm not sure it would be my
first choice with these majors. But it may be money down the drain.

I'd also add Johns Hopkins if you think she is serious about her interest in
the life sciences. And, if my limited research into law school admissions
has any bearing here, she will be most appealing to medical schools if she
does her undergrad at a school which also has a top-rated med school. But
that is really unsubstantiated babbling on my part at present.

>I am little concerned about lack of enough safety schools. (UCONN
>is a given, but what if she does not like after spending a night?)

Perhaps you could UMass-Amherst? Stony Brook? Rutgers? I'm probably not
much help here.

One more thing to bear in mind! Your and her experience with colleges will
be based on very different sample sizes. It sounds like Yale is the school
she knows best - and the school you know best is often the one with the
longest list of negatives. It's easy to fall into the trap of comparing the
reality of one you know to the promises of one you've only lightly
investigated.

>Your comments are greatly appreciated.

As are your posts...you set a good example.

Hank Murphy
1999 Triumph Tiger "Full Moon"
DoD#Ultra5
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

Thank you very much for the thoughtful and detailed reply. People like
you make this group a very informative one. Let me try to address some
of the questions.

"Hank Murphy" wrote in message ...
> Sarath Perera wrote in message
>
> >First her stats.
> >Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)
>
> This is my first concern. One of the common problems among freshmen is the
> adjustment from being the best and brightest to being just another good
> student who now has to prove themselves. This is an unexpected ego blow for
> many. I'm guessing your HS total enrollment is about 600...this is not
> preparation for a great large college IMHO because everybody knows her there
> at this point.
>
> Another concern is that great students in HS are sometimes that way because
> of the support structure and reinforcement from parents, neighbors/friends,
> and extended family. This isn't something that's measured on a test. You
> know your daughter a little better than I do ) - how much of her drive is
> internal and how much is from her environment?

May be I am biased, but ego is the last word I think of when I think of our
daughter. I think she is fully aware of the fact she is not golden. She
attended Johns Hopkins Summer camps for gifted for three summers. Our
main reason to send her there, spending $2500 despite our financail hardships,
was to show her there are other talented kids. she enjoyed those summer
camps very much. Some of the friends she made there are even closer
than her high school friends.

As parents we encouraged her to do her work. But we were (at least at high
school) not directly involved in her studies or homework. She works pretty
well by herself. More about this later.

>
> >SAT I: 800V, 700M
> >SAT II: 740 English, 670 Chemistry, 620 math (retaking math on Dec 6)
>
> Is the math the 1C or 2C?
>
> The negative seems to be that her scores don't match the typical poor
> verbal, strong math skills of most science majors.

OK, she corrected me. It's 650 on 2c. Still low. When she was in 8th
grade I used to do Math with her. I don't do what she does at school.
I just do someting that opens her mind. I would start on binary numbers
to show there is nothing special with 10 digits and so on. She would
grasp everything. When she went to high scholl our working together
stopped. Now that she is taking a math class at Yale, she was asking
me for help. I noticed that she now does math in a mechanical way.
I think her high school teachers screwed her math. She wants short cuts
and rules of thumbs rather than learning fundamentals. She got 670M,
SAT I in grade 8 (640 in grade 7), now 700 3 years later. I think (hope)
under good teachers her math will come back.

>> >She interested in NeuroScience, Psychology, Boilogy, Philosopy, PreMed.
> >She also wants to get involved in human rights issues
> >and community service.
>
> With all due respect...from this list, it looks to me like she does not know
> what she wants to do.

Actually I added Philosophy to throw in her interest in liberal arts. The
other reason is that she went through majors at WashU, saw a major called
NeuroScience and Philosophy, and told me this is the ideal major of mine.
Her dream is to do a MD/PhD in NeuroScience.


> >2. Swarthmore.
> > Visited and had an interview. Little concerned
> > about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation.
>
> To be honest, I'd be more concerned about grade inflation, especially for a
> science major. It will come home to roost someday. And my opinion is that
> a liberal arts school is not the best preparation for post-graduate work in
> a science major...others may differ, and there are certainly examples to the
> contrary, but the grinder of large, tough classes where the student has to
> sink or swim is a better preparation than a warm, nurturing environment.
> Sometimes boot camp is better than charm school. These comments are not
> just for Swat, but for all the fine liberal arts colleges you've listed.
> Not deficient schools by any means - but maybe not the best starting point
> for where she thinks she wants to go.

Agree most of what you say. Working hard and getting a B is still
discouraging though.

>
> >3. Yale.
> > She probably has a better chance at Yale than above two,
> > because Yale usually admits one student from her high school.
> > This is her dream school (too close to home is the only negative).
> > Currently taking Caculus II at Yale.
>
> This was my number one among your choices. You don't mention how far away
> it is, but if she is living on campus, she might as well be in New
> Mexico...she can come home when she wants to, she can stay independent if
> she wants, and you are close enough to be there if something happens.
> (That's been our experience with two at UCLA - YMMV. About an hour away for
> us, less on weekends.) And she knows the campus. Plus it's an outstanding
> university.
>
> Has she done an interview?

She attended diversity open house (we are Sri Lankan). Did an interview
with a student. Attending a class there. While having lunch during the
openhouse at a Yale residential college, she says, "Oh my gawd, this is
scary, I can see your office from here." I work in New Haven and we live
10 miles away.

>
> >Other universities considered/visited (some still possible)
> >
> >1. Harvard.
> > Visited. Too much of a reach. Does not like too competitive
> > reputation. Not known for caring undergraduates. Likes
> > liberal atmosphere and Cambridge.
>
> Worth a try IMHO. Ditto Princeton, although I'm not sure it would be my
> first choice with these majors. But it may be money down the drain.
>
> I'd also add Johns Hopkins if you think she is serious about her interest in
> the life sciences. And, if my limited research into law school admissions
> has any bearing here, she will be most appealing to medical schools if she
> does her undergrad at a school which also has a top-rated med school. But
> that is really unsubstantiated babbling on my part at present.

One of her JHU summer camps was located at JHU itself (where she did
a college level NeuroScience course). She had some interactions
with JHU students there. She got the impression that PreMeds there
are cut-throat competitive and have not time to do anything other
than studying. Despite her advantages due to courses she took,
she decided not to apply there.

>
> >I am little concerned about lack of enough safety schools. (UCONN
> >is a given, but what if she does not like after spending a night?)
>
> Perhaps you could UMass-Amherst? Stony Brook? Rutgers? I'm probably not
> much help here.

Our son went to UMass. She positively hates it there. She did not even
want to visit UCONN, but we went there with another family who were visiting.
After the visit she liked it there, and said "I thought it is like Umass."

>
> One more thing to bear in mind! Your and her experience with colleges will
> be based on very different sample sizes. It sounds like Yale is the school
> she knows best - and the school you know best is often the one with the
> longest list of negatives. It's easy to fall into the trap of comparing the
> reality of one you know to the promises of one you've only lightly
> investigated.

Actually she likes everthing about Yale. Whether she gets admitted and whether
we can afford there are the two critical questions.

>
> >Your comments are greatly appreciated.
>
> As are your posts...you set a good example.

Thank you.

Sarath.
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

"Sarath Perera" wrote in message

> Information from this group has greatly helped my daughter
> in selecting colleges to apply. Here is the current
> list of selected colleges. Please tell us what you think.
>
> First her stats.
> Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)
> SAT I: 800V, 700M

Very, very nice.

> SAT II: 740 English, 670 Chemistry, 620 math (retaking math on Dec 6)

Since she is retaking Math (I or II ??) on Dec 6, I wonder if she has come
up with a plan of study for the test.

I strongly suggest buying or going to the library for Princeton/Kaplan/...
type study books and taking as many practice tests as possible, preferably
in a test like (timed) environment.

Also if she is taking the SATII Math test, perhaps there is a foreign
language SATII which can ace on the same day. Many schools want to see 3
SATII regardless of subjects. Others have specific requirements. A
spreadsheet capturing all potential schools with their resprective SAT II
requirements may be a valuable tool.

> National Merit Semifinalist

MIT loves to see that.

> ECs. President: Amenesty International club (2 years)
> Co-president: Future Buisness leaders
> Member of model UN for 4 years.
> Varsity Tennis player.
> and some more
>
> She interested in NeuroScience, Psychology, Boilogy, Philosopy, PreMed.
> She also wants to get involved in human rights issues
> and community service.
>
> We have not seperated colleges as reach, match, safety; but
> we tried to list in hardest to easiest order. We have not visited
> some colleges here. But she will stay at least one night in the
> college before the final acceptance.
>
> 1. Stanford.
> Did not visit. Attended an info session in CT. #2 dream.

What can I say. A truly excellent choice.

> 2. Swarthmore.
> Visited and had an interview. Little concerned
> about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation.

Great for Liberal Arts. Don't see any real liberal arts major in list above.

> 3. Yale.
> She probably has a better chance at Yale than above two,
> because Yale usually admits one student from her high school.
> This is her dream school (too close to home is the only negative).
> Currently taking Caculus II at Yale.

She'll live in one of the houses. Geographical distance will be immaterial.
Promise her you won't visit unless she specifically invites you. That should
alay her fear of you dropping in uninited.


> 4. Amherst.
> Visited. Did not like before visiting due to prep reputation.
> Tour guides did a good job of describing activities, percentage
> of "first generation college admits" and so on to win her over.

No opinion.

> 5. Cornell.
> Attended the open house on Agriculture school, and decided to
> apply to Arts and Science. Likes the school, says little too
> big for her taste though. Did not like Agriculture school
> because it is too science oriented.

I believe any major she can create in A&S can be similarly created in Ag,
but it's her choice.

If your daughter has off on Veteran's Day (Nov 11) she may want to visit, as
Cornell is in session on Veteran's Day (and Labor Day, and President's day,
....).

We just spent the weekend there. We don't visit unless offspring invites us.
Offspring invited us.

It was beautiful and COLD. (Snow on my car.) Great view of the lunar eclipse
on Saturday night.


> 6. Dartmouth.
> We have not visited yet. But will visit before applying.
> Dartmouth has a good record of admitting kids from her
> high school.
> 7. WashU.
> Did not visit. Atteneded an info session.
> 8. Bowdoin.
> Just back from a visit to Bowdoin, Bates and Colby. At the end
> she liked Bowdoin. There were only two kids in our tour.
> (five divided into two groups.) So we could ask all the
> questions. Tour guide's roommate being a premed and still
> teaches refugee kids from Somalia and does various other
> activities won her over, I think.
> 9. University of Connecticut.
> Already applied (EA) because she is applying for their Nutmeg
> scholarship. Nutmeg is very competitive and she has less
> than 50% chance. The scholarship pays from all expenses,
> and provides many academic perks. A standard tution
> scholarship almost certain.
>
> Other universities considered/visited (some still possible)
>
> 1. Harvard.
> Visited. Too much of a reach. Does not like too competitive
> reputation. Not known for caring undergraduates. Likes
> liberal atmosphere and Cambridge.

Great. Have her apply to MIT instead. Liberal (way too - for my tastes) and
Cambridge, too.

If she can bump up her SAT II Math, with her credentials, she looks like MIT
material

> 2. Princeton.
> ...
> I am little concerned about lack of enough safety schools. (UCONN
> is a given, but what if she does not like after spending a night?)
> Your comments are greatly appreciated.
>
> Sarath.

Best of luck,

Abe
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

"> "Hank Murphy" wrote in message
...
> > Sarath Perera wrote in message
> >
> > >First her stats.
> > >Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)
> >
> > This is my first concern. One of the common problems among freshmen is
the
> > adjustment from being the best and brightest to being just another good
> > student who now has to prove themselves. This is an unexpected ego blow
for
> > many. I'm guessing your HS total enrollment is about 600...this is not
> > preparation for a great large college IMHO because everybody knows her
there
> > at this point.
> >
> > Another concern is that great students in HS are sometimes that way
because
> > of the support structure and reinforcement from parents,
neighbors/friends,
> > and extended family. This isn't something that's measured on a test.
You
> > know your daughter a little better than I do ) - how much of her drive
is
> > internal and how much is from her environment?
Sarath Perera" replied in message

>
> May be I am biased, but ego is the last word I think of when I think of
our
> daughter. I think she is fully aware of the fact she is not golden. She
> attended Johns Hopkins Summer camps for gifted for three summers. Our
> main reason to send her there, spending $2500 despite our financail
hardships,
> was to show her there are other talented kids. she enjoyed those summer
> camps very much. Some of the friends she made there are even closer
> than her high school friends.

My take from our experience:

Our son is currently a freshman at Yale, having been at the top of his class
at a small public school. His own stats were not significantly different
from your daughter's. Hank points to a importantissue. Knowing you are
average (in the new context) is not the same as experiencing it. Our son
was as realistic as your daughter going in. He knew the facts, but had not
experienced them. He is doing well, but has taken a few stiff body blows.
Its been a real eye opener, something you want to take care to prepare you
daughter for. Here is one lesson that we wish that someone had passed on
to us: Even if your daughter gets a five on an AP exam, consider taking
the course again rather than going on to the next level if she ends up at
one of the top colleges on her list. And be very careful about course
selection in the first semester. Many of the schools your daughter is
applying to allow long "shopping periods". Encourage your daughter to take
advantage of them. Our son registered for only 4 (the minimum number of
courses) in the first semester. He realized, to late, that he had signed up
for the wrong calculus class. Knowing what we know now we would have
encouraged him to sign up for a couple of extra classes, so he could have
dropped one or two which did not suit him well.

Re: the lack of safety schools. Why not add some small liberal arts schools
a little off the beaten track schools like Grinnel, Clarmont McKenna,
Macalaster. Middlebury, Pomona perhaps not exactly safety schools, but a
good fit. Middlebury was our (the parents) absolutely favorite school for
its universally positive student body. Grinnel (a too little artsy for our
absolutely straight arrow son), but it seems to recognize its place as a
safety school for students with aspirations for the Ivies and little Ivies.
It encourages quite late applications.

Regards,

R. Carriere
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

"Hank Murphy" wrote
> Sarath Perera wrote in message
>
> It sounds like both you and she have done good work, certainly a lot more
> research than many others! Please excuse the long post which follows.
>
> Some notes, off the top of my head, and remember that internet advice from
> someone who doesn't know your child may not be accurate!
>
> >First her stats.
> >Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)
>
> This is my first concern. One of the common problems among freshmen is
the
> adjustment from being the best and brightest to being just another good
> student who now has to prove themselves. This is an unexpected ego blow
for
> many. I'm guessing your HS total enrollment is about 600...this is not
> preparation for a great large college IMHO because everybody knows her
there
> at this point.

She might thrive from being among students as bright ot brighter than her.

>
> Another concern is that great students in HS are sometimes that way
because
> of the support structure and reinforcement from parents,
neighbors/friends,
> and extended family. This isn't something that's measured on a test. You
> know your daughter a little better than I do ) - how much of her drive
is
> internal and how much is from her environment?

Even if it's from the environment, don't you think she would have that
environment at soem of the top schools she is interested in?

>
> >SAT I: 800V, 700M
> >SAT II: 740 English, 670 Chemistry, 620 math (retaking math on Dec 6)
>
> Is the math the 1C or 2C?

Was wondering the same thing myself.

>
> The negative seems to be that her scores don't match the typical poor
> verbal, strong math skills of most science majors.

Why is that a negative? Perhaps female science majors have superior verbal
skills relative to male science majors?

>
> >3. Yale.
> > She probably has a better chance at Yale than above two,
> > because Yale usually admits one student from her high school.
> > This is her dream school (too close to home is the only negative).
> > Currently taking Caculus II at Yale.
>
> This was my number one among your choices. You don't mention how far away
> it is, but if she is living on campus, she might as well be in New
> Mexico...she can come home when she wants to, she can stay independent if
> she wants, and you are close enough to be there if something happens.
> (That's been our experience with two at UCLA - YMMV. About an hour away
for
> us, less on weekends.) And she knows the campus. Plus it's an
outstanding
> university.
>
> Has she done an interview?
>
> >5. Cornell.
> > Attended the open house on Agriculture school, and decided to
> > apply to Arts and Science. Likes the school, says little too
> > big for her taste though. Did not like Agriculture school
> > because it is too science oriented.
>
> My second choice among your selections. Less grade inflation from what
I've

No grade inflation.

> heard. Several top-notch departments. Further from home and a bit more
> difficult for travel - fly to Binghampton or Schenechtady, rent a car.

Fly to Ithaca when USAir has a sale. Otherwise drive.

4 (- 5) hours from NYC. (17 to Binghamton, 81 N, 79 to ithaca OR
95->80->380->81N->79.)

6 hours from Boston (Mass Pike/ NY thruway past Albany to 88 towards
Binghamton, but cutoff early to Ithaca.)

From New Haven, probably 84 to 17. Looks like 5 1/2 hours per Yahoo maps.

Best,

Abe
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

My daughter is looking at Pre Med with a final objective of OD.

SUNY has a 3 + 4 program. Anyone familar with this program ?

We attended an open house at SUNY New Paltz. A biology advisor suggested
that medical schools are now looking for students with more "rounded" life
experienace, interest in things other than science, and an understanding of
what they will be getting themselves into.

My daughter is also an avid woodwind player and was looking at a minor in
music. The open house music reps seemed interested in her talents claimng
all they get these days are too many guitarists and drummers.

We live in an area that until recently was considered rural / agricultural.
Her rank is 12 out of a class of 350 with SAT of 1200, avg around 95, some
volunter work for the National Weather Service Skywarn program, Key Club,
Girl Scouts, etc.

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

On 9 Nov 2003 17:41:21 -0800, (Sarath Perera)
wrote:

>> >2. Swarthmore.
>> > Visited and had an interview. Little concerned
>> > about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation.
>>
>> To be honest, I'd be more concerned about grade inflation, especially for a
>> science major. It will come home to roost someday. And my opinion is that
>> a liberal arts school is not the best preparation for post-graduate work in
>> a science major...others may differ, and there are certainly examples to the
>> contrary, but the grinder of large, tough classes where the student has to
>> sink or swim is a better preparation than a warm, nurturing environment.
>> Sometimes boot camp is better than charm school. These comments are not
>> just for Swat, but for all the fine liberal arts colleges you've listed.
>> Not deficient schools by any means - but maybe not the best starting point
>> for where she thinks she wants to go.
>
>Agree most of what you say. Working hard and getting a B is still
>discouraging though.

Does it really have to be? I'd say it all depends on what you're used
to, and what you think that B is saying. I went to a college with a
strict C standard. There were as many Bs as Ds and as many As as Fs.
We all knew this. The result was that nobody expected As except
possibly if everything cme together *just* right in a class perfectly
suited to our greatest talents and drives. I got one flat A and a
couple of A-minuses in my entire college career and I cherished them
and the memories of the classes which were so perfect for me that I
was capable of earning them... while remaining, as were all my
friends, entirely satisfied with working hard for our Bs.

Bottom line: if you *know* that what the school means by "A" is "nice
work," then you expect one simply for being bright and working hard.
But if you know equally well that what a school means by a B is "nice
work" then that's what you expect for being bright and working hard,
and if what they mean by an A is "WOW!! I've never seen anything like
this in the last ten years of teaching!!" then there's no shame in
getting few of them, and a great deal of pride in the rare one you
pull off.

Naomi
 >> Stay informed about: Our College Selection 

"Abe Kohen" wrote in message ...
> "Sarath Perera" wrote in message
> Since she is retaking Math (I or II ??) on Dec 6, I wonder if she has come
> up with a plan of study for the test.

She re-took SAT I in Nov, results not out yet. She will be re-taking
SAT II Math 2C in Dec. One problem is she refuses to put any math
formula into her calculator. Even though College board says
"your calculator memory will not be erased" and some of her friends
have filled calculator with stuff, she says it is not ethical. I think
I have convinced her that it is not unethical now. Anyone who took
Math 2C, how effective is putting formulae in calculator memory?

>
> I strongly suggest buying or going to the library for Princeton/Kaplan/...
> type study books and taking as many practice tests as possible, preferably
> in a test like (timed) environment.

She has a Kaplan book (somewhat old one). And I think she practised
a timed test last time.

> >
> > She interested in NeuroScience, Psychology, Boilogy, Philosopy, PreMed.
> > She also wants to get involved in human rights issues
> > and community service.
> >
> > We have not seperated colleges as reach, match, safety; but
> > we tried to list in hardest to easiest order. We have not visited
> > some colleges here. But she will stay at least one night in the
> > college before the final acceptance.
> >
> > 1. Stanford.
> > Did not visit. Attended an info session in CT. #2 dream.
>
> What can I say. A truly excellent choice.
>
> > 2. Swarthmore.
> > Visited and had an interview. Little concerned
> > about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation.
>
> Great for Liberal Arts. Don't see any real liberal arts major in list above.

Hank didn't like Liberal arts colleges for science either. But doesn't
Swarth lead percentage of eventual science PhD's list?

> > 3. Yale.
> > She probably has a better chance at Yale than above two,
> > because Yale usually admits one student from her high school.
> > This is her dream school (too close to home is the only negative).
> > Currently taking Caculus II at Yale.
>
> She'll live in one of the houses. Geographical distance will be immaterial.
> Promise her you won't visit unless she specifically invites you. That should
> alay her fear of you dropping in uninited.

Too close doesn't stop her from making it the #1 choice.


> > 5. Cornell.
> > Attended the open house on Agriculture school, and decided to
> > apply to Arts and Science. Likes the school, says little too
> > big for her taste though. Did not like Agriculture school
> > because it is too science oriented.
>
> I believe any major she can create in A&S can be similarly created in Ag,
> but it's her choice.
>
> If your daughter has off on Veteran's Day (Nov 11) she may want to visit, as
> Cornell is in session on Veteran's Day (and Labor Day, and President's day,
> ...).
>
> We just spent the weekend there. We don't visit unless offspring invites us.
> Offspring invited us.
>
> It was beautiful and COLD. (Snow on my car.) Great view of the lunar eclipse
> on Saturday night.

Verteran's day is not off for her. One thing she did not like at Cornell
is the confusing residential setup. Most everybody lives off-campus.

> Best of luck,
>
> Abe

Thank you very much. I appreciate your taking time to help us out.

Sarath.
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I wonder if some of the fussy comments about what I'd consider to be
secondary issues is a bit of rebellion against high parental pressure in
the college process. Sounds like great help by the parents
and adequate groundwork to me.
Time to give some breathing room for the child to decide.
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"Sarath Perera" wrote in message

> First her stats.
> Current class rank 1/153 (average public high school)
> SAT I: 800V, 700M
> SAT II: 740 English, 670 Chemistry, 620 math (retaking math on Dec 6)
> National Merit Semifinalist[snip]> She interested in NeuroScience,
Psychology, Boilogy, Philosopy, PreMed.
> She also wants to get involved in human rights issues
> and community service.

I am a bit puzzled as to why you think so many of the schools you listed are
reach schools for your daughter. With her extremely high verbal scores and
very good but not outstanding math and science scores, plus being a National
Merit Semi-finalist (which will almost certainly lead to being a finalist),
I don't think any of these schools are out of her reach. But I will comment
on some things.

Stanford -- is she ready to make the huge move to the west coast? My
brother, a lifelong New Yorker and graduate of Cornell, dreamed about going
to Stanford for years and did get his MBA there. He never ever wanted to go
to back to California again. He complained that all the girls looked
identical (tall, blond, skinny, and tanned) and it was always summer.

Swarthmore and Amherst -- probably the best small liberal arts schools in
the country (along with Williams). Students there are diverse, work
extremely hard to get good grades, and find plenty of opportunities for and
fellow students interested in human rights and community service. I think
these two schools are well within her grasp. When you say "Little concerned
about the reputation for hard work and grade deflation", do you mean you
think she will have to work too hard for grades that are too low or do you
mean these issues are not really issues for you? I would think she would
prefer a school with a reputation for hard work and for students who have to
work hard to earn realistic grades. Harvard, for example, has an average
student GPA of A-. That means absolutely zero.

Yale -- so maybe this is her real safety school. If worse comes to worse,
she attends an excellent school a bit too close to home for comfort. Put it
near the bottom of her list.

Cornell -- I can't imagine why your daughter would even consider Ag school
unless she wants to be a farmer or the Secretary of Agriculture. Arts &
Sciences is excellent, she has a very good chance of being admitted, but it
is bigger than some of her other top picks. She would have to think about
her ability to be happy in a large but not huge university. I assume it's
about the same size, undergrad, as Stanford. It gets very cold in Ithaca
but it is an extraordinarily beautiful place. Your statement, "Did not like
Agriculture school because it is too science oriented." doesn't make a
whole lot of sense when, except for Psychology and Philosophy, all of her
preferred majors are sciences.

Dartmouth -- excellent school but very isolated. A friend's daughter
graduated first in her class from there and loved it. She was very involved
in human rights issues.

Wash. U. -- Why? Where did this come from? Doesn't seem to go along with
her other picks. It's an excellent big city university.

Bowdoin, Bates, Colby -- all excellent small liberal arts colleges maybe a
rung lower than Swarthmore and Amherst. My son attended a summer program
at Bates and loved it but did not want to go to college in such a small
town. This would be a personal decision. Bates does not request SAT
scores. Colby does have a reputation for being rich and preppy.

University of Connecticut -- isn't this also too close to home? Surely this
is a safety school for her. Not a bad school but not in the same league as
her other choices.

Harvard -- I really think Harvard is overrated as an undergraduate school
although I can't imagine anyone turning down an acceptance if for the name
alone. Its classes are huge, there is rampant grade inflation, many lower
level classes are taught by TAs, little individual attention, etc. Apply
but don't hope for much. It has far more to offer in its graduate schools.

Princeton -- would be an excellent choice for your daughter for all the
reasons you mentioned. It does, however, tend to be preppy and rich-kid but
she can still find a place for herself there. It's probably the most
exclusive, yet well-balanced, of the Ivy League schools.

UPenn. -- Excellent school but not as exciting as the others.

Haverford. -- your description was funny. I don't know much about this
school except that its on the Pennsylvania Main Line (rich and exclusive)
and is considered a brother school to Bryn Mawr.

Williams -- I would classify Williams up there with Swarthmore and Amherst,
maybe as third. Might not be as much of a reach as you think.

Brown -- the president, Ruth Simmons, is a wonder to behold. I don't know,
however, if or how she has changed the school. I feel about Brown as I do
about U. Penn. She should visit and sit in on classes.

Weslyan -- could do better. And, you're right -- theme houses can be very
isolating and insular. I never understood the reason for them.

Tufts -- not too difficult to get into. Should keep this on the list if she
needs to and has visited first.

Rice -- very avant garde. Kids love it or hate it. She will need to visit
it, spend a night in the dorms, and attend classes to see if it fits her
style.

I take it your daughter is not interested in women's school such as
Wellesley or Smith? She would probably love either one, although Smith is
much more liberal than Wellesley. A great many Smith students are science
majors and it has the only engineering school exclusively for women. Its
art curriculum and art museum are spectacular. A large majority of the
women are involved in club sports and love them. It even has a rugby team
with its own cheerleaders! If she attends Amherst, she can take classes at
Smith (and vice versa). Smith classes are very small, the professors teach
every class and know all the students on a first name basis, they go out of
their ways to individualize education. Students can even build their own
curriculum and major. Smithies are extremely into community service (there
is a school for the deaf on campus) and no school of which I am aware is
more into civil rights than Smith. The lack of male students has not seemed
to be a hindrance for the women who are interested in them and there are men
from three of the surrounding schools in many classes.

I would not worry that her preferred majors are all over the place. It's an
unusual student who knows her major until she has taken at least a year of
classes, often two before choosing. College is a time to gain exposure to
areas previously unexplored. At Smith, it's fairly easy to double-major and
even triple-major because there are no required courses outside of the major
unless the student wants Latin Honors (then she has to take one course from
each curriculum area). A huge percentage of the junior class goes abroad
for school which they love.

Keep us up to date on what your daughter is doing. She seems to be on the
right track.
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"Hank Murphy" wrote in message

> For
> Premed, service in a hospital or clinic is probably preferable, but this
> does depend greatly on the discretion of the admissions committee and
> interviewer, so never mind.

My son was recently accepted to several medical schools so I know for a fact
that science majors do not have any advantage. Med schools, rather, perfer
the well-rounded student who has majored in something completely unrelated
but has also taken all the science prerequisites. Or students can do what
my son did (though I am not necessarily recommending this course) -- major
in anything, get a Masters or a Ph.D, go to law school, practice for a few
years, quit the practice, take post-baccalaureate science pre-reqs, then
apply to med school --- and go stark raving mad waiting for interviews and
acceptances. He was extremely fortunate to be interviewed and accepted in
the first round -- many applicants, even those with better MCATs and GPAs
than he had, don't get accepted until a year after applying, some even the
day before classes start.

> I'd also add Johns Hopkins if you think she is serious about her interest
in
> the life sciences. And, if my limited research into law school admissions
> has any bearing here, she will be most appealing to medical schools if she
> does her undergrad at a school which also has a top-rated med school. But
> that is really unsubstantiated babbling on my part at present.

This may have helped my son get accepted to med school at Case where he did
his undergrad and post-bacc classes. He went to Columbia for law school.
Case tends to like the older, non-traditional student who already has
another career unrelated to medicine.

> One more thing to bear in mind! Your and her experience with colleges
will
> be based on very different sample sizes. It sounds like Yale is the
school
> she knows best - and the school you know best is often the one with the
> longest list of negatives. It's easy to fall into the trap of comparing
the
> reality of one you know to the promises of one you've only lightly
> investigated.

Wow -- this is an excellent point!! Sort of like ignoring the boy next door
who may well turn out to be the best thing around.
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"Steve Stone" wrote in message

> My daughter is looking at Pre Med with a final objective of OD.

What is an OD?

> We attended an open house at SUNY New Paltz.

Beautiful area.

>A biology advisor suggested
> that medical schools are now looking for students with more "rounded" life
> experienace, interest in things other than science, and an understanding
of
> what they will be getting themselves into.

This is absolutely true. See my previous statements about this.

> My daughter is also an avid woodwind player and was looking at a minor in
> music. The open house music reps seemed interested in her talents claimng
> all they get these days are too many guitarists and drummers.

How about looking at Oberlin in Ohio? It has an excellent reputation for
music besides being an excellent liberal arts school. She should be able to
get accepted.
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"Sarath Perera" wrote in message

> I noticed that she now does math in a mechanical way.
> I think her high school teachers screwed her math. She wants short cuts
> and rules of thumbs rather than learning fundamentals. She got 670M,
> SAT I in grade 8 (640 in grade 7), now 700 3 years later. I think (hope)
> under > > >2. Swarthmoregood teachers her math will come back.

Ah, the wonders of that damn new math (whole math) that focuses on
guesstimates and the steps used to get to the answer, not the correct
answer. Too bad the SAT allows only one answer -- the correct one (not).

> Agree most of what you say. Working hard and getting a B is still
> discouraging though.

I wouldn't worry about that if it turns out Swarthmore is her best choice.

> She attended diversity open house (we are Sri Lankan). Did an interview
> with a student. Attending a class there. While having lunch during the
> openhouse at a Yale residential college, she says, "Oh my gawd, this is
> scary, I can see your office from here." I work in New Haven and we live
> 10 miles away.

Tell her not to live in that particular residential college or get a room
with a different view!

> One of her JHU summer camps was located at JHU itself (where she did
> a college level NeuroScience course). She had some interactions
> with JHU students there. She got the impression that PreMeds there
> are cut-throat competitive and have not time to do anything other
> than studying. Despite her advantages due to courses she took,
> she decided not to apply there.

That is precisely why she should not be pre-med. But I wouldn't pick Johns
Hopkins simply because it does attract many pre-meds for just the reasons
Hank said. And because your daughter didn't really like it there.

> Our son went to UMass. She positively hates it there. She did not even
> want to visit UCONN, but we went there with another family who were
visiting.
> After the visit she liked it there, and said "I thought it is like Umass."

There is a reason why students call UMass ZooMass.

..
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