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LeMod Pol

External


Since: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 145



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:19 pm
Post subject: College Admissions Voodoo
Archived from groups: us>politics, others (more info?)

Thomas Sowell

College Admissions Voodoo

Every year about this time, high school students get
letters of admission -- or rejection -- from colleges
around the country. The saddest part of this process is
not their rejections but the assumption by some
students that they were rejected because they just
didn't measure up to the high standards of Ivy U. or
their flagship state university.

The cold fact is that objective admissions standards
are seldom decisive at most colleges. The admissions
process is so shot through with fads and
unsubstantiated assumptions that it is more like voodoo
than anything else.

A student who did not get admitted to Ivy U. may be a
better student than some -- or even most -- of those
who did. Admissions officials love to believe that they
can spot all sorts of intangibles that outweigh test
scores and grade-point averages.

Such notions are hardly surprising in people who pay no
price for being wrong. All sorts of self-indulgences
are possible when people are unaccountable, whether
they be college admissions officials, parole boards,
planning commissions or copy-editors.

What is amazing is that nobody puts the notions and
fetishes of college admissions offices to a test.
Nothing would be easier than to admit half of a
college's entering class on the basis of objective
standards, such as test scores, and the other half
according to the voodoo of the admissions office. Then,
four years later, you could compare how the two halves
of the class did.

But_apparently_this_would_not_be_politic.

Among the many reasons given for rejecting objective
admissions standards is that they are "unfair." Much is
made of the fact that high test scores are correlated
with high family income.

Very little is made of the statistical principle that
correlation is not causation. Practically nothing is
made of the fact that, however a student got to where
he is academically, that is in fact where he is -- and
that is usually a better predictor of where he is going
to go than is the psychobabble of admissions
committees.

The denigration of objective standards allows
admissions committees to play little tin gods, who
think that their job is to reward students who are
deserving, sociologically speaking, rather than to
select students who can produce the most bang for the
buck from the money contributed by donors and taxpayers
for the purpose of turning out the best quality
graduates possible.

Typical of the mindset that rejects the selection of
students in the order of objective performances was a
recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education
which said that colleges should "select randomly" from
a pool of applicants who are "good enough." Nowhere in
the real world, where people must face the consequences
of their decisions, would such a principle be taken
seriously.

Lots of pitchers are "good enough" to be in the major
leagues but would you just as soon send one of those
pitchers to the mound to pitch the deciding game of the
World Series as you would send Randy Johnson or Roger
Clemens out there with the world championship on the
line?

Lots of military officers were considered to be "good
enough" to be generals in World War II but troops who
served under General Douglas MacArthur or General
George Patton had more victories and fewer casualties.
How many more lives would you be prepared to sacrifice
as the price of selecting randomly among generals
considered to be "good enough"?

If you or your child had to have a major operation for
a life-threatening condition, would you be just as
content to have the surgery done by anyone who was
"good enough" to be a surgeon, as compared to someone
who was a top surgeon in the relevant specialty?

The difference between first-rate and second-rate
people is enormous in many fields. In a college
classroom, marginally qualified students can affect the
whole atmosphere and hold back the whole class.

In some professions, a large part of the time of
first-rate people is spent countering the half-baked
ideas of second-rate people and trying to salvage
something from the wreckage of the disasters they
create. "Good enough" is seldom good enough.

Thomas Sowell, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, is
author of several books, including his latest, "Applied
Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One."

--
LP

"We are fighting today for security, for progress,
and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all
men, not only for one generation but for all
generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world
of ancient evils, ancient ills."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
State of the Union Address - 1942

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Herman Rubin

External


Since: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 431



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: College Admissions Voodoo [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <425FE4E1.216FB425 DeleteThis @igs.net>, LeMod Pol <modpol DeleteThis @igs.net> wrote:

>Thomas Sowell

>College Admissions Voodoo

>Every year about this time, high school students get
>letters of admission -- or rejection -- from colleges
>around the country. The saddest part of this process is
>not their rejections but the assumption by some
>students that they were rejected because they just
>didn't measure up to the high standards of Ivy U. or
>their flagship state university.

The high standards of the scholars rarely come into
play; they are not on the admissions committees. In
fact, frequently it is "professional counselors", who
definitely could not make the faculty, who make the
decisions.

>The cold fact is that objective admissions standards
>are seldom decisive at most colleges. The admissions
>process is so shot through with fads and
>unsubstantiated assumptions that it is more like voodoo
>than anything else.

>A student who did not get admitted to Ivy U. may be a
>better student than some -- or even most -- of those
>who did. Admissions officials love to believe that they
>can spot all sorts of intangibles that outweigh test
>scores and grade-point averages.

This is going to happen quite often, no matter what
criteria are used. I have been in this position
regarding graduate students, and those "intangibles"
do not occur, except how well the students did in
key courses. I would not use grade point averages,
as even the hint that these are used causes students
to learn less.

Many high schools are now refusing to give out class
rank or grade point averages, because they know that
many colleges consider them, and not the quality of
the program.

>Such notions are hardly surprising in people who pay no
>price for being wrong. All sorts of self-indulgences
>are possible when people are unaccountable, whether
>they be college admissions officials, parole boards,
>planning commissions or copy-editors.

>What is amazing is that nobody puts the notions and
>fetishes of college admissions offices to a test.
>Nothing would be easier than to admit half of a
>college's entering class on the basis of objective
>standards, such as test scores, and the other half
>according to the voodoo of the admissions office. Then,
>four years later, you could compare how the two halves
>of the class did.

>But_apparently_this_would_not_be_politic.

You are SOOOOOO right!

>Among the many reasons given for rejecting objective
>admissions standards is that they are "unfair." Much is
>made of the fact that high test scores are correlated
>with high family income.

>Very little is made of the statistical principle that
>correlation is not causation. Practically nothing is
>made of the fact that, however a student got to where
>he is academically, that is in fact where he is -- and
>that is usually a better predictor of where he is going
>to go than is the psychobabble of admissions
>committees.

There is another thing to consider; the student may
be lacking in certain types of knowledge, but may
have considerable ability. This is what the SAT
used to concentrate upon, but it has now gone to
a mixture. I keep urging my colleagues to make
the remedial courses for those who have not seen
the important material, or not seen it well, rather
than assuming they had seen it but were not good
enough to get it the first time. This would be
politically difficult, but possible.

>The denigration of objective standards allows
>admissions committees to play little tin gods, who
>think that their job is to reward students who are
>deserving, sociologically speaking, rather than to
>select students who can produce the most bang for the
>buck from the money contributed by donors and taxpayers
>for the purpose of turning out the best quality
>graduates possible.

I have definitely seen this myself.

>Typical of the mindset that rejects the selection of
>students in the order of objective performances was a
>recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education
>which said that colleges should "select randomly" from
>a pool of applicants who are "good enough." Nowhere in
>the real world, where people must face the consequences
>of their decisions, would such a principle be taken
>seriously.

>Lots of pitchers are "good enough" to be in the major
>leagues but would you just as soon send one of those
>pitchers to the mound to pitch the deciding game of the
>World Series as you would send Randy Johnson or Roger
>Clemens out there with the world championship on the
>line?

>Lots of military officers were considered to be "good
>enough" to be generals in World War II but troops who
>served under General Douglas MacArthur or General
>George Patton had more victories and fewer casualties.
>How many more lives would you be prepared to sacrifice
>as the price of selecting randomly among generals
>considered to be "good enough"?

>If you or your child had to have a major operation for
>a life-threatening condition, would you be just as
>content to have the surgery done by anyone who was
>"good enough" to be a surgeon, as compared to someone
>who was a top surgeon in the relevant specialty?

>The difference between first-rate and second-rate
>people is enormous in many fields. In a college
>classroom, marginally qualified students can affect the
>whole atmosphere and hold back the whole class.

>In some professions, a large part of the time of
>first-rate people is spent countering the half-baked
>ideas of second-rate people and trying to salvage
>something from the wreckage of the disasters they
>create. "Good enough" is seldom good enough.

You are absolutely correct. I see students who took
key courses from supposedly great teachers, and had
little understanding.

> Thomas Sowell, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, is
>author of several books, including his latest, "Applied
>Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One."
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin DeleteThis @stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

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LeMod Pol

External


Since: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 145



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: College Admissions Voodoo [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article <425FE4E1.216FB425.RemoveThis@igs.net>, LeMod Pol <modpol.RemoveThis@igs.net> wrote:
>
> >Thomas Sowell
>
> >College Admissions Voodoo
>
> >Every year about this time, high school students get
> >letters of admission -- or rejection -- from colleges
> >around the country. The saddest part of this process is
> >not their rejections but the assumption by some
> >students that they were rejected because they just
> >didn't measure up to the high standards of Ivy U. or
> >their flagship state university.
>
> The high standards of the scholars rarely come into
> play; they are not on the admissions committees. In
> fact, frequently it is "professional counselors", who
> definitely could not make the faculty, who make the
> decisions.

In no part of this article did Dr Sowell mention
"scholars" as part of the selections/admissions

> >The cold fact is that objective admissions standards
> >are seldom decisive at most colleges. The admissions
> >process is so shot through with fads and
> >unsubstantiated assumptions that it is more like voodoo
> >than anything else.
>
> >A student who did not get admitted to Ivy U. may be a
> >better student than some -- or even most -- of those
> >who did. Admissions officials love to believe that they
> >can spot all sorts of intangibles that outweigh test
> >scores and grade-point averages.
>
> This is going to happen quite often, no matter what
> criteria are used. I have been in this position
> regarding graduate students, and those "intangibles"
> do not occur, except how well the students did in
> key courses. I would not use grade point averages,
> as even the hint that these are used causes students
> to learn less.

There were no GPAs way back when I was teaching, but
when i could get it past the administration, I used
pass/fail and i gave no final exams.
>
> Many high schools are now refusing to give out class
> rank or grade point averages, because they know that
> many colleges consider them, and not the quality of
> the program.

Perhaps that is because too many teachers still teach
to the lowest common denominator
>
> >Such notions are hardly surprising in people who pay no
> >price for being wrong. All sorts of self-indulgences
> >are possible when people are unaccountable, whether
> >they be college admissions officials, parole boards,
> >planning commissions or copy-editors.
>
> >What is amazing is that nobody puts the notions and
> >fetishes of college admissions offices to a test.
> >Nothing would be easier than to admit half of a
> >college's entering class on the basis of objective
> >standards, such as test scores, and the other half
> >according to the voodoo of the admissions office. Then,
> >four years later, you could compare how the two halves
> >of the class did.
>
> >But_apparently_this_would_not_be_politic.
>
> You are SOOOOOO right!
>
> >Among the many reasons given for rejecting objective
> >admissions standards is that they are "unfair." Much is
> >made of the fact that high test scores are correlated
> >with high family income.
>
> >Very little is made of the statistical principle that
> >correlation is not causation. Practically nothing is
> >made of the fact that, however a student got to where
> >he is academically, that is in fact where he is -- and
> >that is usually a better predictor of where he is going
> >to go than is the psychobabble of admissions
> >committees.
>
> There is another thing to consider; the student may
> be lacking in certain types of knowledge, but may
> have considerable ability. This is what the SAT
> used to concentrate upon, but it has now gone to
> a mixture. I keep urging my colleagues to make
> the remedial courses for those who have not seen
> the important material, or not seen it well, rather
> than assuming they had seen it but were not good
> enough to get it the first time. This would be
> politically difficult, but possible.
>
> >The denigration of objective standards allows
> >admissions committees to play little tin gods, who
> >think that their job is to reward students who are
> >deserving, sociologically speaking, rather than to
> >select students who can produce the most bang for the
> >buck from the money contributed by donors and taxpayers
> >for the purpose of turning out the best quality
> >graduates possible.
>
> I have definitely seen this myself.
>
> >Typical of the mindset that rejects the selection of
> >students in the order of objective performances was a
> >recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education
> >which said that colleges should "select randomly" from
> >a pool of applicants who are "good enough." Nowhere in
> >the real world, where people must face the consequences
> >of their decisions, would such a principle be taken
> >seriously.
>
> >Lots of pitchers are "good enough" to be in the major
> >leagues but would you just as soon send one of those
> >pitchers to the mound to pitch the deciding game of the
> >World Series as you would send Randy Johnson or Roger
> >Clemens out there with the world championship on the
> >line?
>
> >Lots of military officers were considered to be "good
> >enough" to be generals in World War II but troops who
> >served under General Douglas MacArthur or General
> >George Patton had more victories and fewer casualties.
> >How many more lives would you be prepared to sacrifice
> >as the price of selecting randomly among generals
> >considered to be "good enough"?
>
> >If you or your child had to have a major operation for
> >a life-threatening condition, would you be just as
> >content to have the surgery done by anyone who was
> >"good enough" to be a surgeon, as compared to someone
> >who was a top surgeon in the relevant specialty?
>
> >The difference between first-rate and second-rate
> >people is enormous in many fields. In a college
> >classroom, marginally qualified students can affect the
> >whole atmosphere and hold back the whole class.
>
> >In some professions, a large part of the time of
> >first-rate people is spent countering the half-baked
> >ideas of second-rate people and trying to salvage
> >something from the wreckage of the disasters they
> >create. "Good enough" is seldom good enough.
>
> You are absolutely correct. I see students who took
> key courses from supposedly great teachers, and had
> little understanding.

So many of those "supposedly great teachers" are fine
scholars but have little knowledge of, and no interest
in paedagogy.
>
> > Thomas Sowell, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, is
> >author of several books, including his latest, "Applied
> >Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage One."

--
LP

Those who show compassion to perpetrators of evil
will display indifference and cruelty to good people
deserving compassion.
Talmud- kohlet midrabba 7:36

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Herman Rubin

External


Since: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 431



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:31 pm
Post subject: Re: College Admissions Voodoo [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <4260323A.D62495AC.RemoveThis@igs.net>, LeMod Pol <modpol.RemoveThis@igs.net> wrote:


>Herman Rubin wrote:

>> In article <425FE4E1.216FB425.RemoveThis@igs.net>, LeMod Pol <modpol.RemoveThis@igs.net> wrote:

.....................

>> You are absolutely correct. I see students who took
>> key courses from supposedly great teachers, and had
>> little understanding.

>So many of those "supposedly great teachers" are fine
>scholars but have little knowledge of, and no interest
>in paedagogy.

No, it is the other way around. These supposedly great
teachers are well-versed in pedagogical technique as
it comes from the educationists, and do not have much,
if any, understanding of the subject matter. They teach
to what the students expect based on their elementary
and high school classes, and even if they go beyond this,
scholarship rarely enters the picture.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin.RemoveThis@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
 >> Stay informed about: College Admissions Voodoo 
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