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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:56 am
Post subject: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data Archived from groups: soc>college>admissions (more info?)
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Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
By ROBERT TOMSHO
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Stung by last week's Supreme Court decision allowing race to continue to be
considered in college admissions, affirmative-action opponents plan to
attack such diversity programs by denying them a crucial commodity: data.
Their first battleground will be California, where, as early as this fall,
voters will be asked to decide on a "Racial Privacy Initiative." If passed,
it would bar state and local government entities from maintaining databases
related to citizens' race and ethnicity and -- except where the federal
government requires it -- even collecting such information on forms
involving school enrollment, job applications and government contracting.
The measure is opposed by a far-flung group that ranges from civil-rights
advocates who fear it will block efforts to stop racial profiling to
health-care providers concerned that it will hamper medical research. The
initiative has "a lot to do with how important health, education and
law-enforcement programs are delivered," says Jay Zeigler, co-director of
the Coalition for an Informed California.
Still, there are signs that many people are increasingly reluctant to give
up such information about themselves, and in California, early polls
indicate that the initiative has the backing of 48% of the state's voters,
even if many also say they are unsure of its details. Affirmative-action
opponents hope a victory will stir up sympathetic legislative activity and
ballot-box initiatives elsewhere. "I think it could spark a firestorm, state
by state," says Edward Blum, senior fellow at the Center for Equal
Opportunity, a Sterling, Va., advocacy group opposed to affirmative action.
The California initiative's leading advocate is Sacramento businessman Ward
Connerly, who was also a leader of the successful 1996 campaign to pass
California's Proposition 209, which bars government entities in the state
from using racial preferences in hiring, contracting and education. Mr.
Connerly's efforts inspired voters in Washington state to pass a similar
initiative two years later, and in 2000, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush changed his
state's university admissions procedures after Mr. Connerly threatened to
launch an initiative campaign there.
In the wake of the Supreme Court's ruling, Mr. Connerly is already assessing
whether to launch a second initiative campaign, in Michigan. Collecting the
data necessary to categorize people by their backgrounds only heightens
race's divisive influence upon society, he maintains. "I think deeply
embedded in the psyche of the American people is the notion that we want to
be colorblind," says Mr. Connerly, whose ancestors included Irish, French,
African-Americans and Choctaw Indians.
Although she is Caucasian, Jessica Peck, of Arvada, Colo., couldn't agree
more. When Ms. Peck applied to attend graduate school at Johns Hopkins
University in Baltimore two years ago, she refused to check off the box
indicating her racial and ethnic background. "We are just too diverse as
students and as Americans to have a simple race box to tell the government
who we are," says Ms. Peck. She subsequently earned a master's degree in
government from Johns Hopkins and is now director of the Campus
Accountability Project, an advocacy group in Golden, Colo., that seeks to
end the collection of racial data as part of college admissions.
By law, public and private colleges and universities are required to ask
prospective students about their race and ethnicity on applications and to
report the results to the federal government. Students aren't legally bound
to answer such questions, however, and a growing percentage don't.
Nearly 18% of those who took the SAT in 2002 didn't respond to questions
about their race and ethnicity, up from less than 10% in 1997. The College
Board, the association that administers the SAT, uses such data to ensure
that test questions are fair to all races. Schools also buy lists of SAT
test takers to use for recruiting purposes.
Meanwhile, at the University of California at Berkeley, 9.5% of the students
admitted for this fall provided no ethnic data, up from 6% a decade ago.
Johns Hopkins officials estimate that one out of five of its applicants
doesn't reveal his or her race or ethnicity and say that most of the "no
reports" appear to be Caucasian and Asian-Americans who apparently believe
that reporting their race will play against them.
Opposition to the gathering of racial and ethnic information has not always
been ground occupied by conservatives, reverse-discrimination activists or
cagey college applicants. After World War II, early United Nations
proclamations denounced the sort of government racial classifications that
the Nazis had employed. During the civil-rights era, liberals argued for
banning application photographs, which were used to screen African-American
students out of many universities.
More recently, the issue has divided scholars. In 1998, the American
Anthropological Association issued a statement denouncing the whole concept
of "race" as a mode of classification "devised to rationalize European
attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples." Last year,
that helped prompt the American Sociological Association to issue a defense
of collecting and studying racial data.
The loss of such information would be a huge blow to efforts to ferret out
discrimination, says Troy Duster, a New York University sociologist. "It may
well be true that we are all alike at the DNA level," he adds, "but that
doesn't stop the police from profiling or the bank from giving out loans due
to pigmentation."
Observers say the California initiative has yet to create much of a
political stir there, but that could change quickly. Initiative supporters
have collected enough signatures for the issue to appear on the ballot in
the next statewide election.
That would be in March 2004 unless opponents of Gov. Gray Davis, a Democrat,
succeed in their effort to hold a statewide recall vote this fall. If held,
such a recall election is expected to draw conservative voters to the polls
in large numbers. "That will be helpful to the initiative," says Sherry
Bebitch Jeffe, a political analyst at the University of Southern California.
"I think it could easily pass."
Copyright 2003 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" <akohen.DeleteThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<bdudp7$10rsur$1@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de>...
> Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
>
> By ROBERT TOMSHO
> Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
right we must really make it the case that every "large decision" can
be made in a completely race neutral way. Of course this implies some
of the things I've talked about in other threads (complete equality of
opportunity from prior to birth on), but race should be completely
hidden from getting loans, college admissions, getting a job.
This implies that face to face interviews are gone. Interviews can be
done through a computer system that masks race. Names would have to
be omitted, in favor of a good hash. Address would also have to be
omitted. Past high school and college attendance would also have to
be omitted. Standardized tests would likely have to take their place.
With that said, I think we need to equalize opportunity first though.
I've yet to see anyone put together a proposal for a race-neutral
world. It might be a vision, but these steps in the dark seem to be
just randomizing what a goal might be.
KSG >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"KSG" <ksg619.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote
> "Abe Kohen" <akohen.TakeThisOut@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
> >
> > By ROBERT TOMSHO
> > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
>
> It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
It may be short-sighted, but it is in the best interest of non-minorities to
refuse to supply racial data.
Since we live in societies where most people act out of self interest, it
would be unfathomable to supply data that affects oneself (and ones progeny)
adversely.
It is also the outcome predicted by game theory.
Abe >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jul 03, 2003 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:40 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" <akohen.RemoveThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<be0670$10q60q$1@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de>...
> "KSG" <ksg619.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Abe Kohen" <akohen.RemoveThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > > Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
> > >
> > > By ROBERT TOMSHO
> > > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
> >
> > It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
>
> It may be short-sighted, but it is in the best interest of non-minorities to
> refuse to supply racial data.
>
> Since we live in societies where most people act out of self interest, it
> would be unfathomable to supply data that affects oneself (and ones progeny)
> adversely.
>
> It is also the outcome predicted by game theory.
>
> Abe
It is in the best interests of minorities as well. Otherwise, they
risk 1) being stigmatized for eternity as "not good enough to make it
on their merits." Or 2) an accessory admitted to enhance white
student's racially myopic education. As a result, more and more black
and Hispanic students with the grades and SATS, are leaving the race
box blank. If you want to improve the number of minority students in
an elite schools, fix the public school system. Take it out of the
hands of the Democratically controlled NEA. >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Oct 27, 2003 Posts: 20
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:16 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"KSG" <ksg619 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f55f01d6.0307020747.6814bb60@posting.google.com...
> I've yet to see anyone put together a proposal for a race-neutral
> world. It might be a vision, but these steps in the dark seem to be
> just randomizing what a goal might be.
The problem is that completely race-neutral policies will not provide
diversity without prior race-neutral opportunities from birth. If everyone
applied to college with numbers replacing name, address, high school, and
everything else that could remotely be interpreted to indicate race,
admissions would be truly race-neutral. But then what do you do when those
accepted are almost 100% caucasian and Asian? >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" <akohen RemoveThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<be0670$10q60q$1@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de>...
> "KSG" <ksg619 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Abe Kohen" <akohen RemoveThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > > Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
> > >
> > > By ROBERT TOMSHO
> > > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
> >
> > It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
>
> It may be short-sighted, but it is in the best interest of non-minorities to
> refuse to supply racial data.
>
> Since we live in societies where most people act out of self interest, it
> would be unfathomable to supply data that affects oneself (and ones progeny)
> adversely.
There certainly exists a large class of people that act almost purely
out of self-interest, and I do agree that many (if not most) in the
anti-affirmitive action camp are in that group. Many people have very
little problem exploiting others in order to get what they want.
Regarding supplying race data -- it's not hard to guess the race of
applicants if you wanted to. And if you wish to make clear your race,
that is not hard to do either. This is a big reason why
discrimination will happen in most aspects of life w/o a race box, and
why if admissions officers want to practice affirmitive action,
they'll still be able to.
> It is also the outcome predicted by game theory.
You've constructed a game theoretic model to predict human behavior in
this case? That would probably not only win you a Fields Medal, but
the highest honors in sociology and psychology as well. Von Neumann
even could only construct models for the simplest of games.
KSG >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jul 03, 2003 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:27 pm
Post subject: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Kath" <kathryn.havemann RemoveThis @lexisnexis.com> wrote in message news:<be16q5$hto$1@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...
> "KSG" <ksg619 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f55f01d6.0307020747.6814bb60@posting.google.com...
> > I've yet to see anyone put together a proposal for a race-neutral
> > world. It might be a vision, but these steps in the dark seem to be
> > just randomizing what a goal might be.
>
> The problem is that completely race-neutral policies will not provide
> diversity without prior race-neutral opportunities from birth. If everyone
> applied to college with numbers replacing name, address, high school, and
> everything else that could remotely be interpreted to indicate race,
> admissions would be truly race-neutral. But then what do you do when those
> accepted are almost 100% caucasian and Asian?
Therefore, in the name of diversity it is Kosher bend the meaning of
the Consitution and to discriminate against Asians and whites? Fine.
But then AA supporters should not whine when minorities are suspected
of being not as capable as those who got entry based on merit. >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:34 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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takam5 DeleteThis @aol.com (zeno) wrote in message news:<d676bf7c.0307031027.5d56c31a DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
> "Kath" <kathryn.havemann DeleteThis @lexisnexis.com> wrote in message news:<be16q5$hto$1@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...
> > "KSG" <ksg619 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:f55f01d6.0307020747.6814bb60@posting.google.com...
> > > I've yet to see anyone put together a proposal for a race-neutral
> > > world. It might be a vision, but these steps in the dark seem to be
> > > just randomizing what a goal might be.
> >
> > The problem is that completely race-neutral policies will not provide
> > diversity without prior race-neutral opportunities from birth. If everyone
> > applied to college with numbers replacing name, address, high school, and
> > everything else that could remotely be interpreted to indicate race,
> > admissions would be truly race-neutral. But then what do you do when those
> > accepted are almost 100% caucasian and Asian?
>
> Therefore, in the name of diversity it is Kosher bend the meaning of
> the Consitution and to discriminate against Asians and whites? Fine.
> But then AA supporters should not whine when minorities are suspected
> of being not as capable as those who got entry based on merit.
The problem is that whites are never thought of as less capable, even
when Jews, Black, and Asians had quotas against their admittance.
Whites can have advantage in everything in life from age 0 to 17, and
that is never counted against them.
If you let Blacks and Whites trade net-worth, I'd happily give you 20
points to UofM undergrad.
KSG >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jul 03, 2003 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 3 Jul 2003 14:34:07 -0700, ksg619.DeleteThis@hotmail.com (KSG) wrote:
>takam5@aol.com (zeno) wrote in message news:<d676bf7c.0307031027.5d56c31a.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>...
>> "Kath" <kathryn.havemann.DeleteThis@lexisnexis.com> wrote in message news:<be16q5$hto$1@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>...
>> > "KSG" <ksg619.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:f55f01d6.0307020747.6814bb60@posting.google.com...
>> Therefore, in the name of diversity it is Kosher bend the meaning of
>> the Consitution and to discriminate against Asians and whites? Fine.
>> But then AA supporters should not whine when minorities are suspected
>> of being not as capable as those who got entry based on merit.
>
>The problem is that whites are never thought of as less capable, even
>when Jews, Black, and Asians had quotas against their admittance.
>Whites can have advantage in everything in life from age 0 to 17, and
>that is never counted against them.
Well said. Where are all the people who suspect that legacies, who are
mostly white, are not as capable as the black, Asian, and Hispanic
students who received no such advantage? Where are all the people who
are claiming that whites who benefitted from the Jewish quota are less
capable than the Jewish or Asian students they displaced? Where are
all the people who are claiming that students from rural areas and
sparsely-populated states, who were given preferences on the basis of
"geographical diversity," are less capable than their urban
counterparts?
Josh >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:31 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"KSG" <ksg619 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote
> "Abe Kohen" <akohen DeleteThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > "KSG" <ksg619 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote
> > > "Abe Kohen" <akohen DeleteThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > > > Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
> > > >
> > > > By ROBERT TOMSHO
> > > > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
> > >
> > > It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
> >
> > It may be short-sighted, but it is in the best interest of
non-minorities to
> > refuse to supply racial data.
> >
> > Since we live in societies where most people act out of self interest,
it
> > would be unfathomable to supply data that affects oneself (and ones
progeny)
> > adversely.
>
> There certainly exists a large class of people that act almost purely
> out of self-interest, and I do agree that many (if not most) in the
> anti-affirmitive action camp are in that group.
I suppose being Black and in favor of Affirmative Discrimination is not out
of self-interest? Actually, not when you consider the stigma it puts on ALL
Blacks.
> Many people have very
> little problem exploiting others in order to get what they want.
Pot calling the kettle black.
>
> Regarding supplying race data -- it's not hard to guess the race of
> applicants if you wanted to.
Lenny Kravitz? Whoopi Goldberg?
> And if you wish to make clear your race,
> that is not hard to do either. This is a big reason why
> discrimination will happen in most aspects of life w/o a race box, and
> why if admissions officers want to practice affirmitive action,
> they'll still be able to.
>
> > It is also the outcome predicted by game theory.
>
> You've constructed a game theoretic model to predict human behavior in
> this case? That would probably not only win you a Fields Medal, but
You do mean Nobel Prize as in John Nash,
> the highest honors in sociology and psychology as well. Von Neumann
> even could only construct models for the simplest of games.
Perhaps if little Johnny (Jancsi) had spent more time learning Talmud from
his grandfather he would have seen a perfect example of game theory applied
to the estate of a polygamous man. (See the paper by Aumann.)
Can you imagine what would have happened if the Hungarians had continued to
practice Affirmative Discrimination against Hungarian Jewish students the
way the US practices it now? Von Neumann, Teller, Erdos, Polya, etc.
Perhaps you'll counter that they were eligible for "Diversity" as their
ancestors were slaves in Egypt?
Abe >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jun 22, 2003 Posts: 116
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Joshua P. Hill" <joshhill DeleteThis @snet.net.REMOVE.THIS> wrote
> Where are all the people who suspect that legacies, who are
> mostly white, are not as capable as the black, Asian, and Hispanic
> students who received no such advantage?
Indeed where are they? Any evidence that a 1400 SAT-1 legacy is less
academically qualified than a "displaced" 950 SAT-I Black?
> Where are all the people who
> are claiming that whites who benefitted from the Jewish quota are less
> capable than the Jewish or Asian students they displaced?
Here I am! And indeed we did away with quotas once only to have them
reinstated again.
> Where are
> all the people who are claiming that students from rural areas and
> sparsely-populated states, who were given preferences on the basis of
> "geographical diversity," are less capable than their urban
> counterparts?
Here I am.
Abe >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jul 30, 2003 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:46:21 -0400, "Abe Kohen"
<akohen DeleteThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>"Joshua P. Hill" <joshhill DeleteThis @snet.net.REMOVE.THIS> wrote
>> Where are all the people who suspect that legacies, who are
>> mostly white, are not as capable as the black, Asian, and Hispanic
>> students who received no such advantage?
>
>Indeed where are they? Any evidence that a 1400 SAT-1 legacy is less
>academically qualified than a "displaced" 950 SAT-I Black?
Oh, I see, so it's OK to be somewhat dumber than the kids who are
admitted on the basis of merit but not OK to be much dumber.
Great.
>> Where are all the people who
>> are claiming that whites who benefitted from the Jewish quota are less
>> capable than the Jewish or Asian students they displaced?
>
>Here I am! And indeed we did away with quotas once only to have them
>reinstated again.
We never did away with quotas. Just look at "regional diversity" = not
from New York City where all the smart Jewish kids come from.
>> Where are
>> all the people who are claiming that students from rural areas and
>> sparsely-populated states, who were given preferences on the basis of
>> "geographical diversity," are less capable than their urban
>> counterparts?
>
>Here I am.
Josh >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Abe Kohen" <akohen.RemoveThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<bed3cs$3rttt$1@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de>...
> "KSG" <ksg619.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Abe Kohen" <akohen.RemoveThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > > "KSG" <ksg619.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote
> > > > "Abe Kohen" <akohen.RemoveThis@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote
> > > > > Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data
> > > > >
> > > > > By ROBERT TOMSHO
> > > > > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
> > > >
> > > > It's not a bad idea, but people are so short-sighted. To do this
> > >
> > > It may be short-sighted, but it is in the best interest of
> non-minorities to
> > > refuse to supply racial data.
> > >
> > > Since we live in societies where most people act out of self interest,
> it
> > > would be unfathomable to supply data that affects oneself (and ones
> progeny)
> > > adversely.
> >
> > There certainly exists a large class of people that act almost purely
> > out of self-interest, and I do agree that many (if not most) in the
> > anti-affirmitive action camp are in that group.
>
> I suppose being Black and in favor of Affirmative Discrimination is not out
> of self-interest? Actually, not when you consider the stigma it puts on ALL
> Blacks.
What's affirmitive discrimination? Is that what George Bush does with
his targetted tax cuts?
It's funny how you try to use this "stigma" thing as a scare tactic.
As if Blacks aren't already 100% stigmatized in this country w/o
affirmitive action. It's like threatening someone already sentenced 3
life sentences with five more years if he doesn't his bed morning.
> > Many people have very
> > little problem exploiting others in order to get what they want.
>
> Pot calling the kettle black.
Another racist statement
> > Regarding supplying race data -- it's not hard to guess the race of
> > applicants if you wanted to.
>
> Lenny Kravitz? Whoopi Goldberg?
Black names... next question.
> > And if you wish to make clear your race,
> > that is not hard to do either. This is a big reason why
> > discrimination will happen in most aspects of life w/o a race box, and
> > why if admissions officers want to practice affirmitive action,
> > they'll still be able to.
> >
> > > It is also the outcome predicted by game theory.
> >
> > You've constructed a game theoretic model to predict human behavior in
> > this case? That would probably not only win you a Fields Medal, but
>
> You do mean Nobel Prize as in John Nash,
Actually I meant a Fields Medal, but the Nobel Prize might be more
applicable.
> > the highest honors in sociology and psychology as well. Von Neumann
> > even could only construct models for the simplest of games.
>
> Perhaps if little Johnny (Jancsi) had spent more time learning Talmud from
> his grandfather he would have seen a perfect example of game theory applied
> to the estate of a polygamous man. (See the paper by Aumann.)
You consider that an interesting application of game theory -- and
something near the complexity of AA? I assume you're joking.
> Can you imagine what would have happened if the Hungarians had continued to
> practice Affirmative Discrimination against Hungarian Jewish students the
> way the US practices it now? Von Neumann, Teller, Erdos, Polya, etc.
I know this is crazy sounding, but I don't know very much about the
Hungarians and their educational practices.
KSG >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Jul 30, 2003 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 8 Jul 2003 00:26:10 -0700, ksg619 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (KSG) wrote:
>"Abe Kohen" <akohen RemoveThis @xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message news:<bed3cs$3rttt$1@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de>...
>> Can you imagine what would have happened if the Hungarians had continued to
>> practice Affirmative Discrimination against Hungarian Jewish students the
>> way the US practices it now? Von Neumann, Teller, Erdos, Polya, etc.
>
>I know this is crazy sounding, but I don't know very much about the
>Hungarians and their educational practices.
Hey, those practices gave us Dr. Strangelove -- they can't have been
all bad.
Josh >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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Since: Sep 28, 2003 Posts: 26
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection of Ethnic Data [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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ksg619 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (KSG) wrote in message news:<f55f01d6.0307072326.1e3dd514 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
> It's funny how you try to use this "stigma" thing as a scare tactic.
> As if Blacks aren't already 100% stigmatized in this country w/o
> affirmitive action. It's like threatening someone already sentenced 3
> life sentences with five more years if he doesn't his bed morning.
I just completely skipped multiple words in that sentence. Sorry to
put you all through these parsing exercises.
KSG >> Stay informed about: WSJ: Affirmative-Action Opponents Seek A Ban on Collection.. |
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