Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe..

tony cooper filted:
>
>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:16:10 -0800 (PST), "maidenmerch@googlemail.com"
><maidenmerch RemoveThis @googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>Every December schools and local governments are confronted with the
>>question of how to approach the holidays without favoring one
>>religious faith over another or making some feel uncomfortable because
>>their religious background is different from others.
>>
>>To help negotiate the "December Dilemma," the Anti-Defamation League
>>(ADL) provides public schools and government institutions nationwide
>>with materials and information on how to keep public recognition of
>>the December holidays respectful, welcoming and constitutionally
>>permissible.
>>
>>http://www.adl.org/PresRele/RelChStSep_90/5183_90.htm
>
>You've posted this to deliberately aggravate Mr Lieblich, haven't you?
>
>That page contains S.O.P. instructions to sops, including:
>
>"Choosing appropriate holiday symbols to decorate school grounds --
>among them Christmas trees, menorahs, reindeers and snowmen"
>
>Mr Lieblich *may* be diverted by "reindeers", but it's highly unlikely
>that questionable pluralization will penetrate his current dudgeon.

I'm pretty sure "menorahs" is the wrong plural too....

I've got a better solution to the whole problem...keep the banks, libraries,
post offices and Denny'ses open every day and designate November a 61-day month,
to be followed immediately by January....r


--
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On 06/12/07 07:30, tony cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:16:10 -0800 (PST), "maidenmerch@googlemail.com"
> <maidenmerch.TakeThisOut@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Every December schools and local governments are confronted with
>> the question of how to approach the holidays without favoring one
>> religious faith over another or making some feel uncomfortable
>> because their religious background is different from others.

> You've posted this to deliberately aggravate Mr Lieblich, haven't
> you?
>
> That page contains S.O.P. instructions to sops, including:
>
> "Choosing appropriate holiday symbols to decorate school grounds --
> among them Christmas trees, menorahs, reindeers and snowmen"

It seems to be particularly targeted towards him. How did it happen that
the menorah is the only religious symbol in the entire list? At least, I
assume that the snowman-worshipping sect has died out by now.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

<maidenmerch.TakeThisOut@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:727d98c0-8f51-4323-9e5d-7840329252b0@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Every December schools and local governments are confronted with the
> question of how to approach the holidays without favoring one
> religious faith over another or making some feel uncomfortable because
> their religious background is different from others.
>
> To help negotiate the "December Dilemma," the Anti-Defamation League
> (ADL) provides public schools and government institutions nationwide
> with materials and information on how to keep public recognition of
> the December holidays respectful, welcoming and constitutionally
> permissible.
>
> http://www.adl.org/PresRele/RelChStSep_90/5183_90.htm

Since Britain is a country with a Christian religious tradition, and
Christmas is a Christian festival, the use of Christian symbols seems
entirely appropriate.

Adrian
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

<maidenmerch.DeleteThis@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:727d98c0-8f51-4323-9e5d-7840329252b0@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> Every December schools and local governments are confronted with the
> question of how to approach the holidays without favoring one
> religious faith over another or making some feel uncomfortable because
> their religious background is different from others.

This seems to misrepresent the problem. Dates like
Christmas are in most Western countries usually statutory
holidays (under national laws) and are usually religious in
character if not necessarily denominational (cf. observation
of Easter on different dates by the Western (Catholic) and
Eastern Orthodox churches) and have long been thus
recognized. (E.g. Britain's first statute concerning Christmas
appears to have been the prohibition in the 1650s of traditional
and religious ceremonies, superseding practices customary
for centuries earlier.)

Some countries with a long Christian history, e.g. France
and Italy, have long "disestablished" i.e. have by policy no
state church. Others e.g. the UK have an established
state church (actually two, the Church of England and the
(presbyterian) Church of Scotland.) In neither case does
the occurrence of religious festivals (e.g. Whitsun, Advent
Sunday) bother non-observers or followers of other calendars.
In countries like India, Ceylon, Indonesia where two or more
rival religions flourish (Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism) people
may quarrrel and occasionally massacre each other, but
most religious festivals are unaffected. Adherents observe
them and unbelievers ignore them, unless invited to join in
(e.g. Diwali, e.g. Christmas.)

If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
other countries or cultures manage successfully.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
<d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK DeleteThis @ncf.ca> wrote:

>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>other countries or cultures manage successfully.

How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.TakeThisOut@ncf.ca> wrote:
>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>other countries or cultures manage successfully.

The US constitution has a stronger rule against government
establishments than merely forbidding an established church. The
words are "no law respecting an establishment of religion", and this
is interpreted to mean that government (or its minions on the job)
cannot favor any denomination or religion over another, nor religion
over non religion. "Favoring" includes spending ANY government funds,
since government funds cannot be spent without an authorizing law.

To have official recognition of a religious holiday would require
government to spend money. Christmas is NOT a religious holiday in
the US.

lojbab
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab.RemoveThis@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:44sgl3tsfno3h45ji5tsd1ognbvl1rlifg@4ax.com...

> "Don Phillipson" <d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.RemoveThis@ncf.ca> wrote:
> >If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
> >local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
> >holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
> >administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
> >other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>
> The US constitution has a stronger rule against government
> establishments than merely forbidding an established church. The
> words are "no law respecting an establishment of religion", and this
> is interpreted to mean that government (or its minions on the job)
> cannot favor any denomination or religion over another, nor religion
> over non religion. "Favoring" includes spending ANY government funds,
> since government funds cannot be spent without an authorizing law.

Well, it is no particular business of non-Americans how American
institutions interpret the American constitution, but it seems very
peculiar that a law forbidding the establishment of religion is now
so interpreted that the state "cannot favor any denomination or religion
over another."

> To have official recognition of a religious holiday would require
> government to spend money. Christmas is NOT a religious holiday in
> the US.

Nor is it in most countries where Christmas is a statutory authority
(as mentioned in an earlier post, now snipped.) That is the
difference between statutory holidays (relevant to the state and to
all people) and religious ones (relevant only to adherents of some
particular religions.) It seems unnecessary for any state to spend
any extra money for statutory holidays: all it does is pay the
overheads for public buildings and the salaries of staff, as normal,
although the buildings are closed and the staff not obliged to work.
The US government certainly spends some extra money on Christmas, e.g.
design and production of Christmas postage stamps, but I have not yet
heard this denounced as "unfavourable" to other religions. I do not know
if the USA has issued stamps for Jewish or other religious occasions.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.TakeThisOut@ncf.ca> wrote:
>Well, it is no particular business of non-Americans how American
>institutions interpret the American constitution, but it seems very
>peculiar that a law forbidding the establishment of religion is now
>so interpreted that the state "cannot favor any denomination or religion
>over another."

"the DEFINITION of "establishment" is government favoring some flavor
of organized religion with law or money (which in the US necessarily
means law).

>It seems unnecessary for any state to spend
>any extra money for statutory holidays: all it does is pay the
>overheads for public buildings and the salaries of staff, as normal,
>although the buildings are closed and the staff not obliged to work.

***Any*** holiday expenditure is extra BECAUSE (some of) the staff is
not obliged to work. The government is paying a salary, and getting no
labor for it. (And some employees may get bonus pay BECAUSE they are
obliged to work.)

lojbab
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:16:31 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213 DeleteThis @earthlink.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
><d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK DeleteThis @ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>>other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>
>How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
>religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
>administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
>themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.

In the US, as in most other countries, Christmas usually occurs in the school
holidays, so it shouldn't be a problem. They can just ignore it and let the
kids celebrate it at home if they want to.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:52:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:16:31 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213 RemoveThis @earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>><d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK RemoveThis @ncf.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>>>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>>>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>>>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>>>other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>>
>>How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
>>religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
>>administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
>>themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.
>
>In the US, as in most other countries, Christmas usually occurs in the school
>holidays, so it shouldn't be a problem. They can just ignore it and let the
>kids celebrate it at home if they want to.

Amazing coincidence, isn't it? That Christmas always falls during a
school holiday.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:12:40 -0500, tony cooper
<tony_cooper213.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:52:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesmstw.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:16:31 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.DeleteThis@earthlink.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>>><d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.DeleteThis@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>>>>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>>>>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>>>>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>>>>other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>>>
>>>How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
>>>religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
>>>administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
>>>themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.
>>
>>In the US, as in most other countries, Christmas usually occurs in the school
>>holidays, so it shouldn't be a problem. They can just ignore it and let the
>>kids celebrate it at home if they want to.
>
>Amazing coincidence, isn't it? That Christmas always falls during a
>school holiday.

Remarkable. One might almost think that someone had planned it
that way.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:12:40 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:52:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:16:31 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>>><d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.TakeThisOut@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>>>>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>>>>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>>>>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>>>>other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>>>
>>>How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
>>>religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
>>>administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
>>>themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.
>>
>>In the US, as in most other countries, Christmas usually occurs in the school
>>holidays, so it shouldn't be a problem. They can just ignore it and let the
>>kids celebrate it at home if they want to.
>
>Amazing coincidence, isn't it? That Christmas always falls during a
>school holiday.

Amazing or not, it does mean that schools don't need to worry about it.

Some, apparently DO worry about it, but they don't need to. What kids do in
the holidays isn't really their concern, except, perha[ps, in totalitarian
states.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe.. 

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 06:57:14 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:52:03 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:46:44 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:12:40 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:52:21 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>>><hayesmstw.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:16:31 -0500, tony cooper <tony_cooper213.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:19:24 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
>>>>>><d.phillipsonSPAMBLOCK.TakeThisOut@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it is a real problem in the USA or elsewhere that "schools and
>>>>>>>local governments are confronted with . . . how to approach the
>>>>>>>holidays without favoring one religious faith over another," these
>>>>>>>administrative bodies might have the gumption to ask how
>>>>>>>other countries or cultures manage successfully.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How another country or culture handles a holiday without favoring one
>>>>>>religious faith over another is totally irrelevant to US school
>>>>>>administrators. They operate under US laws and need to concern
>>>>>>themselves only with avoiding being sued in US courts.
>>>>>
>>>>>In the US, as in most other countries, Christmas usually occurs in the school
>>>>>holidays, so it shouldn't be a problem. They can just ignore it and let the
>>>>>kids celebrate it at home if they want to.
>>>>
>>>>Amazing coincidence, isn't it? That Christmas always falls during a
>>>>school holiday.
>>>
>>>Amazing or not, it does mean that schools don't need to worry about it.
>>>
>>>Some, apparently DO worry about it, but they don't need to. What kids do in
>>>the holidays isn't really their concern, except, perha[ps, in totalitarian
>>>states.
>>
>>I think you misunderstand what the article is about. It's *not* about
>>what the children, or their parents, do during the holidays. It's
>>about what the schools can do, should do, and are allowed to do during
>>the holiday season.
>
>No, I think the article is just silly, because the kids aren't IN school in
>the holiday season, expet, perhaps, take the opportunity for doing necessary
>maintenance and repairs.

Sometimes, Steve, you cause me to shake my head in wonder. The
Seminole County (FL) schools are closed for the "Winter Break" (can't
call it Christmas Break) between December 24 and January 6.

I'll leave it to you to decide when the "holiday season" might be and
if the kids are IN school during the holiday season.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
 >> Stay informed about: Zionist pressure group ADL offers solution to the "Decembe..