A bogus Madison quote used by separationists

THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
separationists.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in
blood for centuries. ----James Madison, 1803, letter objecting to the use
of government land for churches, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., "2000
Years of Disbelief"

OR

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood
for centuries. - James Madison

OR

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood
for centuries. - -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of
government land for churches, 1803.
************************************************************************
Until such a time as someone provides a complete and proper cite for the
above quote it has to be viewed with high suspicion.

An email to me concerning this quote several years ago:
----------------------------------------------------
From: boston RemoveThis @us.net
Subject: James Madison quote
To: JALISON RemoveThis @infi.net
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:09 -0500 (EST)

JIM:

Does this quote ring a bell with you? I have heard it before, but I'll be
darned if I can actually find it in any of Madison's writings. Do you know
if it's legitimate?

<----Forwarded Message ---->
From: ACLUVT RemoveThis @aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:11:28 -0500 (EST)
To: isbell RemoveThis @au.org
Subject: James Madison quote

Hi,
We're trying to find the source of the following quote from James Madison,
used by Molly Ivins: "The purpose of the separation of church and state is
to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the
soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

Can you help? Or give us to someone who might know? Thanks.

Leslie Williams
Executive Director
ACLU of Vermont
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston RemoveThis @au.org
(202) 466-3234
==================================
I [jalison] emailed back at that time that I had no record of any such
quote. In addition he also was told the same thing by Prof. Robert S.
Alley: Editor of James Madison on Religious Liberty Promethrus Books (1998)
See below:

=========================================
From: boston RemoveThis @us.net
Subject: Re: James Madison quote
To: jalison RemoveThis @infi.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:16:46 -0500 (EST)

Jim:

Thanks for your help with that Madison "quote." I touched base with Bob
Alley (who is one of our trustees) and he also could not confirm it. I
e-mailed the folks in Vermont and recommended they do not use the quote.
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston RemoveThis @au.org
(202) 466-3234
=========================================================
[currently]

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:07:34 -0800 (PST)
From: richard [deleted]
Subject: verification of a madison quote
To: jalison RemoveThis @cox.net

Hi Mr. Allison,

First, I wanted to say that I love your site.. it has been a very valuable
resource for me over the past few years. But now, down to business...
there is a James Madison quote floating around the internet, that I believe
may be erroneous. The most extensive description I can find of it is from
positiveatheism.com, as follows:

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in
blood for centuries." -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of
government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000
Years of Disbelief

I have contacted the editor of the James Madison Papers, and the author of
the book listed above, and neither of them were able to find the source of
that quote. The only sources I can find on the internet have the
description listed above or less. I thought maybe you might know something
about it, or if it is unverifiable, that you could add it to your
'problematic quotes' page.

thanks for your time,

richard
****************************************************************************
[me again]
Madison did object to the use of government land for churches in one of his
vetoes in 1811.
But that has nothing to do with the quote in question.
* Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
Establishment Clause (1811)
http://candst.tripod.com/madvetos.htm
************************************************************************The
only thing in 1803 is this, and it doesn't apply

OCTOBER 1, 1803

Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both houses.... as soon as the senate
shall have advised its ratification"; see ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.], The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton
Smith, Vol. II, 1790 -1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London,
(1995) pp 1297-9
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only known references to separation in the writings of Madison are the
following:


************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803

Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-9

---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)

-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)

----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)

--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833

"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
*********************************************************************
Avoid using the quote.