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Robert Henderson

External


Since: May 08, 2005
Posts: 37



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:49 pm
Post subject: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960
Archived from groups: uk>politics>misc, others (more info?)

The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960

Robert Henderson

British life pre-1960s.

It is important not to be sentimental about life before 1960.
Britain was far from being a peaceful society before the
1960s. Industrial relations were permanently and seriously
fraught from the Eighteenth century onwards, long before
nationalisation and the welfare state. Much crime went
violent unreported because working class communities refused
to report it. Vicious fights regularly took place in places
such as the docks and the mines but rarely came to the
official notice of the police. There was considerable
football hooliganism. Until the Irish Free State was founded,
Irish nationalism was a constant running sore. Violent
criminal gangs controlled places such as the Elephant and
Castle and Brighton.

British education until after the war (and the Butler
Act's implementation) was seriously flawed, with most
children leaving school at 14 with only a primary education -
only those who committed themselves to staying until 16
received what might be considered a proper secondary
curriculum, the others . The general standard of education was
not high, although unlike now, the educated elite were well
educated. Now even the supposed elite are only half-educated
at best.

Notwithstanding these shortcomings, working class society was
much more coherent than it is today. This is because there
were
potent support mechanisms of the working class. These were:

1. Unions, especially in their welfare role.

2. Co-Operative Societies - Harrods for the working class.

3. Homogeneous workingclass communities which mutually
supported their members.

4. Large scale manual employment for the working class.

These support mechanisms have been destroyed by:

- Anti-union legislation.

- Slum clearance which destroyed working class
communities and incidentally weakened both unions and
co-operative movement.

- The wholesale destruction of manual jobs through manic
commitment to free trade.

Both major parties share the blame

Both Labour and Tory parties share the blame for the
destruction of these workingclass institutions, but the Tory
Party must share a greater share of the blame because they
were solely responsible for making a God of laizez faire
economics. This resulted in the greatest blow to workingclass
moral decline because unemployment, especially in areas of
structural unemployment, is socially disorientating, both for
adults and the children who see them unemployed for long
periods and come to think that welfare is a way of life.

Education

Had the natural sources of workingclass employment not been
largely destroyed, the disaster of comprehensive education
would not be so dire because the workingclass would still
have been employed in secure jobs. Instead, millions are
unemployed (admitted or disguised as ill or retired early) or
in insecure and ill-paid jobs, and are left without the
intellectual resources to make sense of the world in which
they find themselves. *

Selfishness made respectable

The demoralisation of society generally was pressed forward
by Thatcher and her successors. Her great sin was to make
selfishness respectable. "Greed is good" said Gordon Gecko in
Wall Street and it was not far from the Thatcherite creed.

Immigration

The final nail in the coffin was mass immigration and the
platform this gave for the development of political
correctness and the removal from the indigenous population,
and especially the English, their right to patriotism.

Conclusion

In short, no political party has clean hands. This is not a
simple welfare state, socialist-engineered societal
failure.


--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http\\www.geocities.com\blairscandal\
Personal website: http\\www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

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Farmer Giles

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Since: Jun 14, 2005
Posts: 3



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:06 am
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Robert Henderson" <philip RemoveThis @anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:npVkARVM6urCFwMR@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960
>
> Robert Henderson
>
> British life pre-1960s.
>
> It is important not to be sentimental about life before 1960.
> Britain was far from being a peaceful society before the
> 1960s.

It was a damn sight more peaceful than it is now.


> Industrial relations were permanently and seriously
> fraught from the Eighteenth century onwards, long before
> nationalisation and the welfare state. Much crime went
> violent unreported because working class communities refused
> to report it. Vicious fights regularly took place in places
> such as the docks and the mines but rarely came to the
> official notice of the police. There was considerable
> football hooliganism.

I went to football fairly regularly as a child in the 1950s, and saw
absolutely no football hooliganism.


> Until the Irish Free State was founded,
> Irish nationalism was a constant running sore.

The British working class were probably more affected by the Irish
'troubles' in the 1970s than at any other time.


> Violent
> criminal gangs controlled places such as the Elephant and
> Castle and Brighton.

Nothing like the problems we have today.


>
> British education until after the war (and the Butler
> Act's implementation) was seriously flawed, with most
> children leaving school at 14 with only a primary education -
> only those who committed themselves to staying until 16
> received what might be considered a proper secondary
> curriculum, the others . The general standard of education was
> not high, although unlike now, the educated elite were well
> educated. Now even the supposed elite are only half-educated
> at best.
>
> Notwithstanding these shortcomings, working class society was
> much more coherent than it is today. This is because there
> were
> potent support mechanisms of the working class. These were:
>
> 1. Unions, especially in their welfare role.
>
> 2. Co-Operative Societies - Harrods for the working class.
>
> 3. Homogeneous workingclass communities which mutually
> supported their members.
>
> 4. Large scale manual employment for the working class.
>
> These support mechanisms have been destroyed by:
>
> - Anti-union legislation.
>
> - Slum clearance which destroyed working class
> communities and incidentally weakened both unions and
> co-operative movement.
>
> - The wholesale destruction of manual jobs through manic
> commitment to free trade.
>
> Both major parties share the blame
>
> Both Labour and Tory parties share the blame for the
> destruction of these workingclass institutions, but the Tory
> Party must share a greater share of the blame because they
> were solely responsible for making a God of laizez faire
> economics. This resulted in the greatest blow to workingclass
> moral decline because unemployment, especially in areas of
> structural unemployment, is socially disorientating, both for
> adults and the children who see them unemployed for long
> periods and come to think that welfare is a way of life.
>
> Education
>
> Had the natural sources of workingclass employment not been
> largely destroyed, the disaster of comprehensive education
> would not be so dire because the workingclass would still
> have been employed in secure jobs. Instead, millions are
> unemployed (admitted or disguised as ill or retired early) or
> in insecure and ill-paid jobs, and are left without the
> intellectual resources to make sense of the world in which
> they find themselves. *
>
> Selfishness made respectable
>
> The demoralisation of society generally was pressed forward
> by Thatcher and her successors. Her great sin was to make
> selfishness respectable. "Greed is good" said Gordon Gecko in
> Wall Street and it was not far from the Thatcherite creed.
>
> Immigration
>
> The final nail in the coffin was mass immigration and the
> platform this gave for the development of political
> correctness and the removal from the indigenous population,
> and especially the English, their right to patriotism.
>
> Conclusion
>
> In short, no political party has clean hands. This is not a
> simple welfare state, socialist-engineered societal
> failure.
>

Whilst I agree that the white working class have been under constant attack
for the last forty or fifty years, they must shoulder some of the blame
themselves for their fragmentation and present demoralised state. The social
structure and class structures of the Britain of the past had a profound
effect on working class mentality in more ways than one. The working class
unity and homogeneity of pre-war Britain largely stemmed from their
collective hardships - which brought about a feeling of shared suffering,
and of everyone being 'in the same boat'.

Post-war prosperity changed all of that. Slowly, but surely, their ingrained
awareness of class 'differences' came to the fore as the new wealth began to
be visited upon some more than others. Suddenly, for many anyway, the name
of the game became disowning or disguising their working class origins -
being working class was not the preferred option for many. Council estates
and council houses, which had liberated so many of the post-war generation
from their back to back primitive hovels, became decidely downmarket places
to inhabit. The preserve of the newly despised caste of working class
untouchables - the underclass.
No, the working class are in retreat and disarray because they have filtered
and statified themselves, through a process of inherent snobbery and
self-hatred, until they no longer dare speak their own name.

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Robert Henderson

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Since: May 08, 2005
Posts: 37



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:37 pm
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In message <svSdnSjeYebV2zLfRVnyjQ.DeleteThis@brightview.com>, Farmer Giles
<Giles.DeleteThis@ic24.net> writes
>
>> The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960
>>
>> Robert Henderson
>>
>> British life pre-1960s.
>>
>> It is important not to be sentimental about life before 1960.
>> Britain was far from being a peaceful society before the
>> 1960s.
>
>It was a damn sight more peaceful than it is now.
>
In what sense exactly? No race riots but what about general disruption?
RH
>
> > Industrial relations were permanently and seriously
>> fraught from the Eighteenth century onwards, long before
>> nationalisation and the welfare state. Much crime went
>> violent unreported because working class communities refused
>> to report it. Vicious fights regularly took place in places
>> such as the docks and the mines but rarely came to the
>> official notice of the police. There was considerable
>> football hooliganism.
>
>I went to football fairly regularly as a child in the 1950s, and saw
>absolutely no football hooliganism.
>
There is little today. The high point bof football hooliganism was in
the seventies and early eighties. RH
>
> > Until the Irish Free State was founded,
>> Irish nationalism was a constant running sore.
>
>The British working class were probably more affected by the Irish
>'troubles' in the 1970s than at any other time.
>
>
> > Violent
>> criminal gangs controlled places such as the Elephant and
>> Castle and Brighton.
>
>Nothing like the problems we have today.
>
>
Evidence? RH
>>
>> British education until after the war (and the Butler
>> Act's implementation) was seriously flawed, with most
>> children leaving school at 14 with only a primary education -
>> only those who committed themselves to staying until 16
>> received what might be considered a proper secondary
>> curriculum, the others . The general standard of education was
>> not high, although unlike now, the educated elite were well
>> educated. Now even the supposed elite are only half-educated
>> at best.
>>
>> Notwithstanding these shortcomings, working class society was
>> much more coherent than it is today. This is because there
>> were
>> potent support mechanisms of the working class. These were:
>>
>> 1. Unions, especially in their welfare role.
>>
>> 2. Co-Operative Societies - Harrods for the working class.
>>
>> 3. Homogeneous workingclass communities which mutually
>> supported their members.
>>
>> 4. Large scale manual employment for the working class.
>>
>> These support mechanisms have been destroyed by:
>>
>> - Anti-union legislation.
>>
>> - Slum clearance which destroyed working class
>> communities and incidentally weakened both unions and
>> co-operative movement.
>>
>> - The wholesale destruction of manual jobs through manic
>> commitment to free trade.
>>
>> Both major parties share the blame
>>
>> Both Labour and Tory parties share the blame for the
>> destruction of these workingclass institutions, but the Tory
>> Party must share a greater share of the blame because they
>> were solely responsible for making a God of laizez faire
>> economics. This resulted in the greatest blow to workingclass
>> moral decline because unemployment, especially in areas of
>> structural unemployment, is socially disorientating, both for
>> adults and the children who see them unemployed for long
>> periods and come to think that welfare is a way of life.
>>
>> Education
>>
>> Had the natural sources of workingclass employment not been
>> largely destroyed, the disaster of comprehensive education
>> would not be so dire because the workingclass would still
>> have been employed in secure jobs. Instead, millions are
>> unemployed (admitted or disguised as ill or retired early) or
>> in insecure and ill-paid jobs, and are left without the
>> intellectual resources to make sense of the world in which
>> they find themselves. *
>>
>> Selfishness made respectable
>>
>> The demoralisation of society generally was pressed forward
>> by Thatcher and her successors. Her great sin was to make
>> selfishness respectable. "Greed is good" said Gordon Gecko in
>> Wall Street and it was not far from the Thatcherite creed.
>>
>> Immigration
>>
>> The final nail in the coffin was mass immigration and the
>> platform this gave for the development of political
>> correctness and the removal from the indigenous population,
>> and especially the English, their right to patriotism.
>>
>> Conclusion
>>
>> In short, no political party has clean hands. This is not a
>> simple welfare state, socialist-engineered societal
>> failure.
>>
>
>Whilst I agree that the white working class have been under constant
>attack for the last forty or fifty years, they must shoulder some of
>the blame themselves for their fragmentation and present demoralised
>state.

Why? They had no control over the changes. RH

>The social structure and class structures of the Britain of the past
>had a profound effect on working class mentality in more ways than one.
>The working class unity and homogeneity of pre-war Britain largely
>stemmed from their collective hardships - which brought about a feeling
>of shared suffering, and of everyone being 'in the same boat'.
>
>Post-war prosperity changed all of that. Slowly, but surely, their
>ingrained awareness of class 'differences' came to the fore as the new
>wealth began to be visited upon some more than others. Suddenly, for
>many anyway, the name of the game became disowning or disguising their
>working class origins - being working class was not the preferred
>option for many.

Utterly untrue for the working class, ie, the majority of Britons. RH

>Council estates and council houses, which had liberated so many of the
>post-war generation from their back to back primitive hovels, became
>decidely downmarket places to inhabit.

Ditto. RH

> The preserve of the newly despised caste of working class untouchables
>- the underclass. No, the working class are in retreat and disarray
>because they have filtered and statified themselves, through a process
>of inherent snobbery and self-hatred, until they no longer dare speak
>their own name.
>
>
>

--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http\\www.geocities.com\blairscandal\
Personal website: http\\www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
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Farmer Giles

External


Since: Jun 14, 2005
Posts: 3



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:26 am
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Robert Henderson" <philip RemoveThis @anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c1mq3FSf0DsCFwjo@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In message <svSdnSjeYebV2zLfRVnyjQ RemoveThis @brightview.com>, Farmer Giles
> <Giles RemoveThis @ic24.net> writes
> >
> >> The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960
> >>
> >> Robert Henderson
> >>
> >> British life pre-1960s.
> >>
> >> It is important not to be sentimental about life before
1960.
> >> Britain was far from being a peaceful society before the
> >> 1960s.
> >
> >It was a damn sight more peaceful than it is now.
> >
> In what sense exactly? No race riots but what about general disruption?
> RH

From a personal point of view, I can only remember the 1950s (incidently,
there were a number of race riots during that decade) when generally
speaking things were very peaceful. My parents and grandparents always spoke
of the pre-war days as a time of great social harmony, when all people could
venture out at any time of the day or night without any great fear of being
molested in any way.


> >
> > > Industrial relations were permanently and seriously
> >> fraught from the Eighteenth century onwards, long
before
> >> nationalisation and the welfare state. Much crime
went
> >> violent unreported because working class communities
refused
> >> to report it. Vicious fights regularly took place in
places
> >> such as the docks and the mines but rarely came to
the
> >> official notice of the police. There was
considerable
> >> football hooliganism.
> >
> >I went to football fairly regularly as a child in the 1950s, and saw
> >absolutely no football hooliganism.
> >
> There is little today. The high point bof football hooliganism was in
> the seventies and early eighties. RH

Absolutely correct, but you talked of there being 'considerable
football hooliganism' pre-1960. When was this exactly?

> >
> > > Until the Irish Free State was founded,
> >> Irish nationalism was a constant running sore.
> >
> >The British working class were probably more affected by the Irish
> >'troubles' in the 1970s than at any other time.
> >
> >
> > > Violent
> >> criminal gangs controlled places such as the Elephant
and
> >> Castle and Brighton.
> >
> >Nothing like the problems we have today.
> >
> >
> Evidence? RH

Evidence? You surprise me Robert. Many of your posts spell out (quite
correctly) the considerable, and unprecedented, disharmony and high levels
of violent crimes that exist in our society these days - not to mention that
many areas of our towns and cities are virtual no-go areas.


> >>
> >> British education until after the war (and the Butler
> >> Act's implementation) was seriously flawed, with
most
> >> children leaving school at 14 with only a primary
education -
> >> only those who committed themselves to staying until
16
> >> received what might be considered a proper
secondary
> >> curriculum, the others . The general standard of education
was
> >> not high, although unlike now, the educated elite were
well
> >> educated. Now even the supposed elite are only
half-educated
> >> at best.
> >>
> >> Notwithstanding these shortcomings, working class society
was
> >> much more coherent than it is today. This is because there
> >> were
> >> potent support mechanisms of the working class. These
were:
> >>
> >> 1. Unions, especially in their welfare role.
> >>
> >> 2. Co-Operative Societies - Harrods for the working class.
> >>
> >> 3. Homogeneous workingclass communities which
mutually
> >> supported their members.
> >>
> >> 4. Large scale manual employment for the working class.
> >>
> >> These support mechanisms have been destroyed by:
> >>
> >> - Anti-union legislation.
> >>
> >> - Slum clearance which destroyed working
class
> >> communities and incidentally weakened both unions
and
> >> co-operative movement.
> >>
> >> - The wholesale destruction of manual jobs through
manic
> >> commitment to free trade.
> >>
> >> Both major parties share the blame
> >>
> >> Both Labour and Tory parties share the blame for
the
> >> destruction of these workingclass institutions, but the
Tory
> >> Party must share a greater share of the blame because
they
> >> were solely responsible for making a God of laizez
faire
> >> economics. This resulted in the greatest blow to
workingclass
> >> moral decline because unemployment, especially in areas
of
> >> structural unemployment, is socially disorientating, both
for
> >> adults and the children who see them unemployed for
long
> >> periods and come to think that welfare is a way of life.
> >>
> >> Education
> >>
> >> Had the natural sources of workingclass employment not
been
> >> largely destroyed, the disaster of comprehensive
education
> >> would not be so dire because the workingclass would
still
> >> have been employed in secure jobs. Instead, millions
are
> >> unemployed (admitted or disguised as ill or retired early)
or
> >> in insecure and ill-paid jobs, and are left without
the
> >> intellectual resources to make sense of the world in
which
> >> they find themselves. *
> >>
> >> Selfishness made respectable
> >>
> >> The demoralisation of society generally was pressed
forward
> >> by Thatcher and her successors. Her great sin was to
make
> >> selfishness respectable. "Greed is good" said Gordon Gecko
in
> >> Wall Street and it was not far from the Thatcherite creed.
> >>
> >> Immigration
> >>
> >> The final nail in the coffin was mass immigration and
the
> >> platform this gave for the development of
political
> >> correctness and the removal from the indigenous
population,
> >> and especially the English, their right to patriotism.
> >>
> >> Conclusion
> >>
> >> In short, no political party has clean hands. This is not
a
> >> simple welfare state, socialist-engineered
societal
> >> failure.
> >>
> >
> >Whilst I agree that the white working class have been under constant
> >attack for the last forty or fifty years, they must shoulder some of
> >the blame themselves for their fragmentation and present demoralised
> >state.
>
> Why? They had no control over the changes. RH

I thought I spelt out the reasons why I think this below.


>
> >The social structure and class structures of the Britain of the past
> >had a profound effect on working class mentality in more ways than one.
> >The working class unity and homogeneity of pre-war Britain largely
> >stemmed from their collective hardships - which brought about a feeling
> >of shared suffering, and of everyone being 'in the same boat'.
> >
> >Post-war prosperity changed all of that. Slowly, but surely, their
> >ingrained awareness of class 'differences' came to the fore as the new
> >wealth began to be visited upon some more than others. Suddenly, for
> >many anyway, the name of the game became disowning or disguising their
> >working class origins - being working class was not the preferred
> >option for many.
>
> Utterly untrue for the working class, ie, the majority of Britons. RH

Oh please, you know very well that working class cohesion and solidarity was
almost completely dissolved throughout the sixties and seventies, because
large sections of it simply elevated themselves and became 'jumped up'
little tyrants. The behaviour of the police during the miners' strikes was a
good example of that.


>
> >Council estates and council houses, which had liberated so many of the
> >post-war generation from their back to back primitive hovels, became
> >decidely downmarket places to inhabit.
>
> Ditto. RH

I witnessed many people in the fifties and sixties proudly taking the keys
to their new council homes. Mostly they were as pleased as punch, and often
the estates themseves reflected that pleasure and pride - very different
from today, because today the solid tier of post-war working class has moved
on leaving behind (not totally, but largely) only those without the means or
ability to escape.

>
> > The preserve of the newly despised caste of working class untouchables
> >- the underclass. No, the working class are in retreat and disarray
> >because they have filtered and statified themselves, through a process
> >of inherent snobbery and self-hatred, until they no longer dare speak
> >their own name.
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Robert Henderson
> Blair Scandal website: http\\www.geocities.com\blairscandal\
> Personal website: http\\www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
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Robert Henderson

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Since: May 08, 2005
Posts: 37



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:27 pm
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In message <xdadnYm0zoHAEy3fRVnytw.RemoveThis@brightview.com>, Farmer Giles
<Giles.RemoveThis@ic24.net> writes
>> There is little today. The high point bof football hooliganism was in
>> the seventies and early eighties. RH
>
>Absolutely correct, but you talked of there being 'considerable
>football hooliganism' pre-1960. When was this exactly?

EG, Millwall were made to play behind closed doors in 1950.
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http\\www.geocities.com\blairscandal\
Personal website: http\\www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
 >> Stay informed about: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 
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Robert Henderson

External


Since: May 08, 2005
Posts: 37



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In message <xdadnYm0zoHAEy3fRVnytw DeleteThis @brightview.com>, Farmer Giles
<Giles DeleteThis @ic24.net> writes
>and
>> >> Castle and Brighton.
>> >
>> >Nothing like the problems we have today.
>> >
>> >
>> Evidence? RH
>
>Evidence? You surprise me Robert. Many of your posts spell out (quite
>correctly) the considerable, and unprecedented, disharmony and high
>levels of violent crimes that exist in our society these days - not to
>mention that many areas of our towns and cities are virtual no-go areas.

AH, I didn't say you were wrong, I merely asked for evidence. The great
poison which has entered our society is not added violence - although it
has done that - but the colonisation of parts of England and the use of
immigrants by liberal bigots to impose ever more damaging laws and
propaganda on the country. rH
--
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http\\www.geocities.com\blairscandal\
Personal website: http\\www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
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Paul Hyett

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Since: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:27 am
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In uk.politics.misc on Thu, 16 Jun 2005 at 13:27:52, Robert Henderson
wrote :
>>
>>Absolutely correct, but you talked of there being 'considerable
>>football hooliganism' pre-1960. When was this exactly?
>
>EG, Millwall were made to play behind closed doors in 1950.

Maybe it was just that no-one wanted to watch them? Smile
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
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Farmer Giles

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Since: Jun 14, 2005
Posts: 3



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:39 pm
Post subject: Re: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Robert Henderson" <philip.RemoveThis@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rXTHvMKIBXsCFwGE@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In message <xdadnYm0zoHAEy3fRVnytw.RemoveThis@brightview.com>, Farmer Giles
> <Giles.RemoveThis@ic24.net> writes
> >> There is little today. The high point bof football hooliganism was in
> >> the seventies and early eighties. RH
> >
> >Absolutely correct, but you talked of there being 'considerable
> >football hooliganism' pre-1960. When was this exactly?
>
> EG, Millwall were made to play behind closed doors in 1950.
> --

As a punishment for fans throwing missiles at the referee apparently, hardly
evidence of there being 'considerable football hooliganism' in those days.
The fact that such a draconian punishment was handed out, for what happened,
is indicative of how the behaviour was seen as being not just unusual in
those days, but also as exceptionally outragious.
 >> Stay informed about: The demoralisation of the white working class since 1960 
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