paying for college

"Abe Kohen" wrote in message ...
> Depending on which grad program you were accepted into you may try different
> approaches. Aid usually comes from the department and not from the FinAid
> office.
>
> Being a TA, RA, or TF will pay for your tuition, or so I recall.
>
> Payback on your Stanford grad education will depend on the field of study
> and your intended field of future employment.
>
> Abe
>
> "Jason" wrote in message
>

[...]

> > Anyways, I don't have anywhere near the $60k I would need in order to
> > attend Stanford for one year. The financial aid department said they

Abe's advice is good, but something is askew in the original post.
$60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the
original poster was talking about the B-school, law school, or med
school tuition (at professional schools, RA and TA positions are
harder to get than in PhD programs).

But even they are nowhere near $60,000 in cost; for 2003-04 tuition,
see <http://co.stanford.edu/students/sar/rates03.html>. The most
expensive school not surprisingly is the Business School, but even it
is only $36,252 for the year. Obviously there's housing and food on
top of that, plus $101 for student body fees, $1,296 for health
insurance, etc. but that's still well short of $60,000. Even a
2-bedroom Stanford family apartment costs only $15,000 for the year;
traditional dorms and apartments are $5,000-$10,000 for a year
<http://www.stanford.edu/dept/hds/has/tour/gradtour/rateschart.html>.

Maybe the original poster is referring to a program whose tuition is
not listed on the Stanford Controller webpage, otherwise I don't see
where the $60,000 figure comes from.


--MKT
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

Mike Tamada wrote:
> $60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
> in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the


Thanks for the replies so far. I got accepted into the engineering
department. I also assumed 12 month tuition/living which is probably
the big difference since most people assume 9-months. Stanford then
gives the tuition at $40,000 + $24,000 living expenses = $64,000 total
(then add the extra fees like medical, etc). If I just wanted to go the
standard 9-months, they estimate the expenses at $31k + $18k = $49k.
Still a lot by my standards. (Hey, I'm poor).

My big delima is how early everything seems to be happening before I can
find out if I would be able to afford things. Should I be applying for
housing? Should I be planning my course work? Should I be looking into
loans? If after all this, the first day of the semester comes and they
tell me, "Sorry, but we have no funding for you." What will I do?

Or should I be applying to both places in parallel and cancel everything
at Stanford if they decide they can't fund me? Will the other school
let me out of attending if I string them along till the last minute? Or
the bigger question is if Stanford will let me out of paying tuition if
I inform them at the last minute I can't afford to attend.

Should I cancel the other school and prepare for Stanford completely?
If I do that, where do I find some place that will loan me $30k that
I'll need (after maxing out the government loans). What kind of salary
increase am I going to expect by going to Stanford? 10%? Say, as an
engineer, I earn $100k/yr, then by having the name "Stanford" on my
resume gets me $10k more a year, it will take me 6 years to get back to
where I would be if I attended school B. Is that worth it? Does 6
years of experience outweigh any effect of a college?

Abe mentioned that I should look at the department for funding, and
that's where I'm stuck. I've applied for the TA's, the RA's, and the
scholarships/fellowships, and they're the ones who state there won't be
any decisions until the beginning of the semester. Is this a good
thing? Are they going to look at need and say, "So-and-so needs money
more, so we'll give him/her a TA job.....?" (Completely independent of
merit). That might be good, but I have to look at what the department
states and the probabilities. (See? I'm an engineer. TA's are
almost never given to entering masters because they do not know the
course layout or what material is covered. True, physics applies in any
school, but if the class covers more material, then the entering TA will
not be able to help the students.

RA's are again almost never given to entering masters because there is
no connection with the professors and the research being done. One
might say I could start early and try to get into an RA, which I will,
but I have to assume I will not obtain any and plan for the worst case
financial.

Graders and others do not get any tuition reduction. It's good for
extra money, but in no way pays the bills at the end of the day.

Sigh. I am sorry to be so long winded, but I have a lot on my mind.
There's a lot to think about and this is not an easy choice. Of course,
the best decisions in life are not easy. Anyone have any advice to
help nibble on these issues? Thanks again in advance!

-Jason
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

I think most (or at least many) Stanford engineering grad students come in
with outside fellowships, which may explain why financial aid isn't a
priority for the staff in engineering to figure out. You should definitely
ask the department for the names and contact info of current first year grad
students in your department, and then ask them what they suggest, as advice
will most definitely vary from department to department.

About getting enough in loans. In your admissions package, you should have
financial aid that fills out until the amount of the "student budget", which
includes tuition and living expenses (including health insurance, personal,
transportation, books, etc). They may have assumed that you could pay a lot
of it on your own, and if you cannot, there should also be a section in the
admissions package about outside lenders (like Bank of America) and their
lending information. You really shouldn't have trouble getting enough in
loans.

One thing to think about is housing. As you probably know housing around
Stanford is a little pricey (although, much better than previous years). In
response to the tight housing market, Stanford provides cheap on-campus
housing for grad students and subsidized off-campus housing for grad
students that don't get on-campus housing. The deadline to apply is
Wednesday. If you think you're going to attend Stanford, you should
definitely apply for housing through the school, as the subsidies are about
a third of the market price of housing here (which means hundreds of dollars
a month!).

In comparing your choices, can you name "School B"? Also, which school do
you think you would learn more at? Be happier at? Make better connections
at? Etc. There's more to grad school than salary...

About stringing along the other school, you should probably just let them
know -- you are considering an offer from Stanford and are in the process of
negotiating any funding that may be available. I'm sure they'll understand.
Heck, it may even get you a better funding package at School B.

BTW, if Stanford does decide to offer you something, make sure you get it in
writing!!!!

Good luck!


On 5/2/04 10:55 PM, in article G9llc.140816$L31.2844@nwrddc01.gnilink.net,
"Jason" wrote:

> Mike Tamada wrote:
>> $60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
>> in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the
>
>
> Thanks for the replies so far. I got accepted into the engineering
> department. I also assumed 12 month tuition/living which is probably
> the big difference since most people assume 9-months. Stanford then
> gives the tuition at $40,000 + $24,000 living expenses = $64,000 total
> (then add the extra fees like medical, etc). If I just wanted to go the
> standard 9-months, they estimate the expenses at $31k + $18k = $49k.
> Still a lot by my standards. (Hey, I'm poor).
>
> My big delima is how early everything seems to be happening before I can
> find out if I would be able to afford things. Should I be applying for
> housing? Should I be planning my course work? Should I be looking into
> loans? If after all this, the first day of the semester comes and they
> tell me, "Sorry, but we have no funding for you." What will I do?
>
> Or should I be applying to both places in parallel and cancel everything
> at Stanford if they decide they can't fund me? Will the other school
> let me out of attending if I string them along till the last minute? Or
> the bigger question is if Stanford will let me out of paying tuition if
> I inform them at the last minute I can't afford to attend.
>
> Should I cancel the other school and prepare for Stanford completely?
> If I do that, where do I find some place that will loan me $30k that
> I'll need (after maxing out the government loans). What kind of salary
> increase am I going to expect by going to Stanford? 10%? Say, as an
> engineer, I earn $100k/yr, then by having the name "Stanford" on my
> resume gets me $10k more a year, it will take me 6 years to get back to
> where I would be if I attended school B. Is that worth it? Does 6
> years of experience outweigh any effect of a college?
>
> Abe mentioned that I should look at the department for funding, and
> that's where I'm stuck. I've applied for the TA's, the RA's, and the
> scholarships/fellowships, and they're the ones who state there won't be
> any decisions until the beginning of the semester. Is this a good
> thing? Are they going to look at need and say, "So-and-so needs money
> more, so we'll give him/her a TA job.....?" (Completely independent of
> merit). That might be good, but I have to look at what the department
> states and the probabilities. (See? I'm an engineer. TA's are
> almost never given to entering masters because they do not know the
> course layout or what material is covered. True, physics applies in any
> school, but if the class covers more material, then the entering TA will
> not be able to help the students.
>
> RA's are again almost never given to entering masters because there is
> no connection with the professors and the research being done. One
> might say I could start early and try to get into an RA, which I will,
> but I have to assume I will not obtain any and plan for the worst case
> financial.
>
> Graders and others do not get any tuition reduction. It's good for
> extra money, but in no way pays the bills at the end of the day.
>
> Sigh. I am sorry to be so long winded, but I have a lot on my mind.
> There's a lot to think about and this is not an easy choice. Of course,
> the best decisions in life are not easy. Anyone have any advice to
> help nibble on these issues? Thanks again in advance!
>
> -Jason
>
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

Go ahead and ask the dept if they expect to pay every student. Good research
departments do.
Margaret


>Subject: Re: paying for college
>From: tamada RemoveThis @oxy.edu (Mike Tamada)
>Date: 5/2/2004 4:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
>
>"Abe Kohen" wrote in message
> ...
>> Depending on which grad program you were accepted into you may try
>different
>> approaches. Aid usually comes from the department and not from the FinAid
>> office.
>>
>> Being a TA, RA, or TF will pay for your tuition, or so I recall.
>>
>> Payback on your Stanford grad education will depend on the field of study
>> and your intended field of future employment.
>>
>> Abe
>>
>> "Jason" wrote in message
>>
>
>[...]
>
>> > Anyways, I don't have anywhere near the $60k I would need in order to
>> > attend Stanford for one year. The financial aid department said they
>
>Abe's advice is good, but something is askew in the original post.
>$60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
>in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the
>original poster was talking about the B-school, law school, or med
>school tuition (at professional schools, RA and TA positions are
>harder to get than in PhD programs).
>
>But even they are nowhere near $60,000 in cost; for 2003-04 tuition,
>see <http://co.stanford.edu/students/sar/rates03.html>. The most
>expensive school not surprisingly is the Business School, but even it
>is only $36,252 for the year. Obviously there's housing and food on
>top of that, plus $101 for student body fees, $1,296 for health
>insurance, etc. but that's still well short of $60,000. Even a
>2-bedroom Stanford family apartment costs only $15,000 for the year;
>traditional dorms and apartments are $5,000-$10,000 for a year
><http://www.stanford.edu/dept/hds/has/tour/gradtour/rateschart.html>.
>
>Maybe the original poster is referring to a program whose tuition is
>not listed on the Stanford Controller webpage, otherwise I don't see
>where the $60,000 figure comes from.
>
>
>--MKT
>
>
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

I think Stanford's School of Engineering may be unique in that they bring on
a ton of graduate students on as masters, and during their first year, they
can apply then for the doctoral program (students that already have their
masters can come in as doc students). But Stanford discourages funding
masters students. In effect, this means that first year graduate
engineering students are unfunded, unless they came in with their own
funding (and many do).

But I'm not sure that "good research departments" necessarily do... I'd say
it's more an unusual thing that a department pays every student...

On 5/2/04 11:06 PM, in article 20040503020630.10191.00000789 DeleteThis @mb-m14.aol.com,
"RMrgrt" wrote:

> Go ahead and ask the dept if they expect to pay every student. Good research
> departments do.
> Margaret
>
>
>> Subject: Re: paying for college
>> From: tamada DeleteThis @oxy.edu (Mike Tamada)
>> Date: 5/2/2004 4:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>> Message-id:
>>
>> "Abe Kohen" wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Depending on which grad program you were accepted into you may try
>> different
>>> approaches. Aid usually comes from the department and not from the FinAid
>>> office.
>>>
>>> Being a TA, RA, or TF will pay for your tuition, or so I recall.
>>>
>>> Payback on your Stanford grad education will depend on the field of study
>>> and your intended field of future employment.
>>>
>>> Abe
>>>
>>> "Jason" wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Anyways, I don't have anywhere near the $60k I would need in order to
>>>> attend Stanford for one year. The financial aid department said they
>>
>> Abe's advice is good, but something is askew in the original post.
>> $60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
>> in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the
>> original poster was talking about the B-school, law school, or med
>> school tuition (at professional schools, RA and TA positions are
>> harder to get than in PhD programs).
>>
>> But even they are nowhere near $60,000 in cost; for 2003-04 tuition,
>> see <http://co.stanford.edu/students/sar/rates03.html>. The most
>> expensive school not surprisingly is the Business School, but even it
>> is only $36,252 for the year. Obviously there's housing and food on
>> top of that, plus $101 for student body fees, $1,296 for health
>> insurance, etc. but that's still well short of $60,000. Even a
>> 2-bedroom Stanford family apartment costs only $15,000 for the year;
>> traditional dorms and apartments are $5,000-$10,000 for a year
>> <http://www.stanford.edu/dept/hds/has/tour/gradtour/rateschart.html>.
>>
>> Maybe the original poster is referring to a program whose tuition is
>> not listed on the Stanford Controller webpage, otherwise I don't see
>> where the $60,000 figure comes from.
>>
>>
>> --MKT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

Talk to school and college guidance counselors. Talk to student loan
and financial aid specialists. Last resort could be going to the bank
with your parents and having them take out a home equity line of
credit off their mortgage/equity/value of house.
Also, contact grant writers and fund raisers.



Jason wrote in message ...
> Hello all,
>
> I'm looking for advice. I was just notified that I got accepted to
> Stanford for graduate school (I really didn't expect that), but seeing
> how it is so late in the year, I am guessing I was one of the last
> picked. Anyways, they never told me I was going to get any funding, but
> said it was "possible" to receive some at the last minute. Considering
> I was the last picked and I haven't been notified yet, I am betting that
> I won't get any money.
>
> Anyways, I don't have anywhere near the $60k I would need in order to
> attend Stanford for one year. The financial aid department said they
> only deal with loans and if I maxed out on what they offer, I would
> still be $30k under ($20k max loan + $10k savings).
>
> On the other hand, I have been accepted to a "good" school (within the
> top 25). They promised me full funding through the year.
>
> I would like to attend Stanford, but I can't see the advantage of
> gaining a mountain of debt to get through graduate school. Assuming I
> get full funding through the 2nd year (and others if I get accepted into
> the doctors program), I would be in at least $50k of debt in addition to
> depleting all of my savings.
>
> So I would like to ask how most people get through these ivy league
> colleges? According to some documents I read, Stanford only funds about
> 50% of the graduate students. I assume the others get through by
> outside scholarships or by a rich uncle.
>
> Can someone help me? I'm at a loss at what to do!
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Jason
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

"Jason" wrote
> Mike Tamada wrote:
> > $60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
> > in the Arts and Sciences (or engineering), so at first I thought the
>
>
> Thanks for the replies so far. I got accepted into the engineering
> department.

What is "the engineering department?"

Stanford has a School of Engineering.

Which department?

Abe
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

Thank you so much for your reply. I have a personal friend that went
to Stanford and he said that most people do not get funding from the
school. That's why I believe I won't be getting any.

I would trust his advice more, but I think he's a bit biased for
Stanford. (Having attended and loved it). I believe the professional
connections are very valuable, but the competitive nature of an ivy
league school means I may not get personal connections. If I needed a
reference letter from a professor, would a standard, "so-and-so did well
in my class," from Dr. Big Name be better than a personal, applicable
letter from a lesser known (or unknown) professor? I honestly don't
know, which is why I ask. (more below. )

SJG wrote:
> I think most (or at least many) Stanford engineering grad students come in
> with outside fellowships, which may explain why financial aid isn't a
>

This brings me to my question of: is the low graduate student funding
because so many bring in outside fellowships, or do so many bring in
outside fellowships because Stanford does so little funding? In other
words, which is the causation?


> One thing to think about is housing. As you probably know housing around
> Stanford is a little pricey (although, much better than previous years). In

This is one of the reasons I don't want to string along the schools.
Both places require early applications, and if I get roped into
accepting a place, then I am stuck with large fees for canceling. Not
to mention the fact that I displace another very qualified student
because of my indecision.

>
> In comparing your choices, can you name "School B"? Also, which school do
> you think you would learn more at? Be happier at? Make better connections
> at? Etc. There's more to grad school than salary...
>

University of Minnesota - from what I hear an excellent school, but not
ivy league.


Thank you again everyone for allowing me to babble in these newsgroups.
I appreciate the comments people have made.

-Jason
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

On 5/3/04 2:37 PM, in article tYylc.145732$L31.142454@nwrddc01.gnilink.net,
"Jason" wrote:

> Thank you so much for your reply. I have a personal friend that went
> to Stanford and he said that most people do not get funding from the
> school. That's why I believe I won't be getting any.
>
> I would trust his advice more, but I think he's a bit biased for
> Stanford. (Having attended and loved it). I believe the professional

Well, I think funding varies by department. Every doctoral student in my
department is fully funded. I would *almost* imagine that every *doctoral*
student at Stanford is fully funded. Not very sure about this, but I can't
think of any off of the top of my head that isn't. Engineering is unique in
that they don't really admit students without masters directly into the
doctoral program.


>
> This brings me to my question of: is the low graduate student funding
> because so many bring in outside fellowships, or do so many bring in
> outside fellowships because Stanford does so little funding? In other
> words, which is the causation?

I think that there are just a lot of fellowships for engineering students...
But it's probably a cycle -- many top engineering students have their own
funding -> only top students go to Stanford -> Stanford focuses on other
issues that engineer students have, since funding isn't a probably for many,
it gets left at the wayside... ====> because it's left at the wayside,
students without funding don't go to Stanford -> back to the beginning...


>
> University of Minnesota - from what I hear an excellent school, but not
> ivy league.

This is probably true in all academic departments -- you'll rarely see grad
students become faculty at schools better than the one from which they
received their PhD. I'm guessing you want to go into academia...
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

"SJG" wrote
> "Jason" wrote:

> Engineering is unique in
> that they don't really admit students without masters directly into the
> doctoral program.

At Cal or at Stanford? At Stanford it depends on the particular department
within the School of Engineering,

> > University of Minnesota - from what I hear an excellent school, but not
> > ivy league.
>
> This is probably true in all academic departments -- you'll rarely see
grad
> students become faculty at schools better than the one from which they
> received their PhD. I'm guessing you want to go into academia...

U of Minn vs Stanford should be an easy decision, if you can overcome the
initial financial hurdle.

The harder decision might be Cal vs Stanford.

Abe
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

Mike Tamada wrote in message ...
>Abe's advice is good, but something is askew in the original post.
>$60,000 for one year is an astronomical amount for a graduate program
<snip>

Mike, one of my daughters is considering applying to Stanford for a PhD in
biochemistry. The recommended 12-month budget was $61,000 and change. Note
that this is not tuition - it includes their estimated living expenses. I
was rushed to the hospital in a state of shock and did not get the cost
breakdown... )

Given the cost of housing in the Bay Area, and Palo Alto in particular, it's
not that far off. However, I don't think they factored in sharing an
apartment or house. I took it as more of a worst-case budget figure.

But the financial issue is definitely a tough one, even if $61K is a
conservative estimate.

Hank Murphy
speaking only for myself
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college 

> Mike, one of my daughters is considering applying to Stanford for a PhD in
> biochemistry. The recommended 12-month budget was $61,000 and change. Note
> that this is not tuition - it includes their estimated living expenses. I
> was rushed to the hospital in a state of shock and did not get the cost
> breakdown... )

A grad student cost of living is $22-$25K for a 12-month year.
Shared rental housing in expensive Silicon Valley is nearly half of that.
The other $35K must be mostly tuition.
A PhD admission will rebate tuition and provide a stipend near the low end
of living costs.
Masters and professional schools have to pay or hock their own way.
 >> Stay informed about: paying for college